Author Topic: Getting 40kph using a 24Volt C20 battery is it possible?  (Read 6719 times)

agoodevans

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Getting 40kph using a 24Volt C20 battery is it possible?
« on: June 20, 2012, 11:44:10 AM »
Have got a 24V C20 battery (A123) so potentially got lots of power. Is it possible to modify a Magic Hub motor to get 40kph. The motor curves indicate 25kph but can I alter it to get the 40kph without increasing the voltage? Any advice would be appreciated.

Offline Morgen 3Eman

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Re: Getting 40kph using a 24Volt C20 battery is it possible?
« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2012, 10:08:41 PM »
Generally speaking, the max rpm of a DC motor is determined by the applied voltage.   If you want faster, you need more volts.  Or a different motor.

TTFN,
Dennis

Offline Morgen 3Eman

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Re: Getting 40kph using a 24Volt C20 battery is it possible?
« Reply #2 on: June 21, 2012, 12:30:31 AM »
By the way, I'm using a 20" MP3 on 48 Volts  and  my max speed is 25 MPH, about 40 KPH as measured by GPS. 

TTFN,
Dennis

agoodevans

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Re: Getting 40kph using a 24Volt C20 battery is it possible?
« Reply #3 on: June 21, 2012, 02:26:26 AM »
Thanks for your advice. When you say that the speed is generally set by the voltage, does that mean that there are other possibilities. Is it possible to alter the coil configeration inside the hub? I know wheel size changes the speed but I'm already using 700C racing wheels. Any other ideas?

Offline Morgen 3Eman

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Re: Getting 40kph using a 24Volt C20 battery is it possible?
« Reply #4 on: June 21, 2012, 04:22:54 AM »
Yes, the windings also affect speed. Wire size, turns, magnets all can be changed to change max RPM.  But why not buy what you need to begin with?  Rewinding a bunch of coils doesn't sound like a fun way to spend your summer.  Adding battery voltage is pretty easy.....

TTFN,
Dennis
   


Offline truly_bent

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Re: Getting 40kph using a 24Volt C20 battery is it possible?
« Reply #5 on: June 21, 2012, 10:16:25 AM »
When I started on this little venture, I thought I was going to build a pusher trailer and was mining for information on the MPs. I'd read somewhere that the 16" MP was configured differently and Bikemad was kind enough to post the performance figures of the different configurations: http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?topic=4271.msg24965#msg24965. Turns out that the 16" MP is configured for speed (Delta), not torque (Wye).

If you study the data, you'll see that the top speed of the 16", under max load, is about 30% greater (253 vs 195 RPM) than the others. Note that the speed increase is even better at lighter loads. The torque at top speed is comparable to the others, but the penalty paid for this increase in speed is an increase in current consumption (31.7 vs 25 amps at 36V). "Ain't nuthin' free" is the scientific term.

Presumably, you could either 1) buy a 16" (Delta) MP and re-mount it into a larger diameter wheel (how are your wheel truing skills?), or 2) buy an MP already in the larger wheel (Wye) and reconfigure the windings to Delta (be brave, be verrrry brave).

A 30% increase brings your top end to somewhere around (25 x 1.3 =) 32.5kph. Not quite the 40kph you're hoping for, but better. Remember though, the price paid is a lower starting torque... and a possible voided warranty.

Happy trails...
8)
« Last Edit: June 21, 2012, 10:55:38 AM by truly_bent »
Burley Canto recumbent w/ MP II, Lyen 18FET controller, 48V 20AH LiFeP04, Cycle Analyst, and 4 pounds of zip-ties

agoodevans

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Re: Getting 40kph using a 24Volt C20 battery is it possible?
« Reply #6 on: June 25, 2012, 12:28:37 PM »
Thanks for all the help, and homework. Lots of reading and playing with Bikemad's spreadsheet- thanks!

Truely-bent your link was very helpful and has sent me off on a journey. Fun- I hope.
I've attached a spreadsheet where I've calculated the Kv for the standard Pie as well as the 16" which appears to be wired in Delta config. Based on these calc's I believe 40kph is possible using 700C wheels. What u think?

Does any one have the motor curves and data for the 16" MP2 at 24V?

Thanks.

Offline truly_bent

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Re: Getting 40kph using a 24Volt C20 battery is it possible?
« Reply #7 on: June 25, 2012, 03:27:06 PM »
I'm an electrical guy, so your derived power calculation (where P = Force (Newtons) x Velocity (m/sec)) is something i've never used. Power derived electrically is going to be 720W (24V x 30A), which is obviously pretty close.

This may work for you, provided you have patience. I suspect acceleration using a 700C wheel in a Delta configuration is going to seem pretty slow. I understand you've already spent a tidy sum on the A123 battery and don't want to have to spend any more. Is there any way you could reconfigure the cells to 36 or 48 volts?
Burley Canto recumbent w/ MP II, Lyen 18FET controller, 48V 20AH LiFeP04, Cycle Analyst, and 4 pounds of zip-ties

agoodevans

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Re: Getting 40kph using a 24Volt C20 battery is it possible?
« Reply #8 on: June 25, 2012, 11:52:12 PM »
Truely-Bent. I'm a teacher and we've entered an endurance event where we are limited to $200 on energy source. The A123's were a good buy and stored the most energy for the buck. So yes I'm stuck with a 24Volt system and accelleration can be slow. Did think about some voltage doubling circuit or DC to DC conterter but at 30Amps, extra cost, inefficiencies, complexity etc..
As you are using the MP3 do you know if the wiring of the motors are the same as for the MP2.  The MP3 controller can handle 35A. I hope 35A when set to 24Volts? Or, am I better to stick with the 16" MP2 and controller as per  BikeMad's experiment with adding to the shunt. I'm a little confused as to whether the MP2 has an internal or external controller. It appeared as though BikeMad altered an internal controller, or am I wrong.
I'm prepared to be brave and go Star/Delta on a MP3 if I know the motor windings are the same except if the coil wire on MP2 16" was larger?
Thanks again for your feedback. Still swimming, but only just afoat.

Offline truly_bent

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Re: Getting 40kph using a 24Volt C20 battery is it possible?
« Reply #9 on: June 26, 2012, 03:44:50 AM »
I'm running an MP II, which requires an external controller. I'm not using a GM external controller and am not familiar with the shunt modification that Bikemad made to his, although the principal of the thing is easy enough to understand.

Changing of the shunt's R value looks to the controller like more or less current is being passed. It's a simple cheat really. Typically, one would lower the R value to fool the wee brain of the controller into allowing more current to pass. The lower R value produces a lower voltage drop across the shunt. The lower drop looks like less current and so the controller turns the FETs on longer to compensate. The problem then becomes one of saturating the FETs and so you double up on those. Pretty soon you have a new business making high powered bicycle controllers.

I haven't had a look at the windings inside my motor. Having said that, I wouldn't be shy about changing the Wye/Delta configuration, if there was reason to. I would rather work on an MP II though, which must have more free space inside than an MP III, which is packed with the internal controller. In either case, it's a matter of identifying the ends of the windings and changing the way they're hooked up together.

I would expect an internal controller to be a bit more of a pain to work on because the windings are (probably) soldered directly into the controller board. Not sure what they're using to connect the windings in the MP II, but they might even be using simple Marr connectors. I'm sure Bikemad can give you the details.

In your case, you'd want to convert a 700C Wye (standard configuration) to Delta (higher speed, lower torque). The only real trick is making sure your Hall Effect (position) feedback sensors are in proper sync with the windings.
:)
Burley Canto recumbent w/ MP II, Lyen 18FET controller, 48V 20AH LiFeP04, Cycle Analyst, and 4 pounds of zip-ties

Offline Bikemad

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Re: Getting 40kph using a 24Volt C20 battery is it possible?
« Reply #10 on: June 27, 2012, 01:28:01 AM »
I'm a little confused as to whether the MP2 has an internal or external controller. It appeared as though Bikemad altered an internal controller, or am I wrong.

The MPII is available in either internal or external controller versions.

I currently have three magic Pies, and all of them have internal controllers:
  • an original MkI Pie which did have a significantly increased current draw of 97.75 Amps following additional modifications to the shunt (this controller eventually died due to the the excessively high current)
  • an MPII which had its shunt modified slightly so it now draws nearly 50 Amps max)
  • an MPIII with an unmodified controller, which is still waiting to be properly tested (27 Amps is the most it's managed to pull so far, but it's only had a very brief test run around the garden so far)

As you're aiming for maximum endurance, there should be no need to modify the shunt for increased power.  ;)

Does any one have the motor curves and data for the 16" MP2 at 24V?

Unfortunately, I could only find 36V performance curves and data results for the 16" version.

Alan