GoldenMotor.com Forum
General Category => General Discussions => Topic started by: GM Canada on March 04, 2013, 03:20:09 PM
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Hello everyone, we need your help in Canada. This poll is being run by a local newspaper and they are trying to have Ebikes licenced and insured. They have already banned them on the multi-use trails and bike lanes on the roads in some municipalities. The city I live in has welcomed them. They are allowed in the bike lanes on the roads. Also allowed on the multi-use trails if under 40kg. Other cites are actively legislating against them. Now an all out ban is being attempted by local newspapers as the have to steer around us while they are drinking their coffee on the way to work.
PLEASE EVERYONE follow this link and vote against licensing Ebikes. Change your browser and vote again. We really need your help here in Canada. Lets save Ebikes worldwide!
Here is the link and your effort to help us will only take seconds and could right the terrible wrong being done against us!
If you are a member of any other forum please post this message over there as well, we are currently losing this poll 347 to 170 against us!
http://blogs.windsorstar.com/2013/02/28/star-editorial-e-bikes-dont-belong-on-trails-and-pathways/
Gary
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Voted against!
Unfortunately changing browser seems does not work, this voting is probably IP based:-(
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Some of these ridiculous laws makes no sense at all.
10km/h speed limit for riders of electric bikes, yet those on conventional bikes can go 20km/h. ::)
If they are going to ban electric bikes, presumably they will also want to ban kids on electric vehicles (scooters, trikes, tractors and miniature cars etc.).
We must also include electric wheelchairs and mobility vehicles, because those are also "unlicensed, their drivers are uninsured and it’s not uncommon to find them in the middle of the road, or cruising down a city sidewalk".
It probably won't be too long before being allowed to walk or run in any public place becomes an offence while using any form of electrical assistance, so those at risk of being caught will have to make sure they switch off their pacemakers (or remove them completely) before venturing out, or face prosecution.
Unfortunately, ridiculous legislations like these are unlikely to be withdrawn once they have been implemented, as most official bodies will never admit that they have actually made a stupid mistake. ;)
Alan
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Waauww another excuse to take money from people.
>:( >:( >:(
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Thank you for your support.
This is the idiocy we are facing in some parts of Ontario, Canada. The province of Ontario did a long term study on Ebikes and decided they were as safe as bicycles. The only difference in operation of an Ebike is you have to be 16 and wear a helmet. They did however make the mistake of allowing cities to create there own laws about Ebikes. Now the city of Toronto and others are having a traffic gridlock crisis and are looking for suggestions on how to cut down the traffic and go green. Could any answer be better than Ebikes? Now the cyclists don't want to share the bike paths and bike lanes and the cars don't want them on the road. So legislating them until they don't exist seems to be the answer.
Most of the harassment against Ebikes comes from the newspapers. Specifically the "star" chain of papers.
Here is another slanted article by the Toronto star.
http://www.thestar.com/news/city_hall/2012/10/11/when_is_an_ebike_a_bicycle.html
Misinformation about speeds and such. Stating Ebikes are dangerous as they go faster then regular bikes. The actual laws on path speeds is 20kph. Easily about 20 percent of the path riders are of the spandex group and exceed these speeds. It would seem enforcing the laws that exist would make more since then creating more laws. Another thing they state often is Ebikes at silent and sneak right up on you from behind. How would an Ebike be quieter then a regular bike. It's all dumb excuses made up by those that don't want to share.
Gary
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Yes I agree with you!
I hope they don't introduce those stupids laws over here.
Most people says E bike are for grannies and grandpa's o well they are just jealous.
And they look stupid when a young guy (me) riding a bike with a helmet haha ;D
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I was watching one of the "real life" New Zealand police shows in which an officer pulled up a guy who was riding a E-Bike because he noticed him not pedaling and doing 40kph, apparently the law there is 20kph limit. It looked like a Magic pie style conversion, the guy had it because he lost his licence, didn't say why. He was wearing a helmet and reflective vest, had all the right gear, riding safely, he was nice in manner talking to the cop and he pointed out that a normal bike could do over 20kph pedaling, but the cop still booked him for driving a vehicle without a licence and I think for an unlicensed vehicle.
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PLEASE EVERYONE!
If you have not voted yet please follow this link and vote NO!
http://blogs.windsorstar.com/2013/02/28/star-editorial-e-bikes-dont-belong-on-trails-and-pathways/
Gary
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thanks for the post Gary. I posted on ES
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Interesting reading. Here in Norway we follow the EU legislations (even though we aren't a part of EU). As you might now EU requires you to pedal and not have engine power above 20km/h. I have always been jealous of you Americans who can cruise around at 32 km/h without pedaling. But after reading this I'm starting to think the EU rules maybe helping the e-bike movement more than hurting it. You have to know what to look for to spot a normal European e-bike amongst regular bikes, and before you know it you might have to look hard to spot a regular bike amongst electric ones. It can be very hard to identify a bike as electric and therefor I don't think they will make distinctions between them any time soon.
Six meters wide pathways? I don't think I've ever seen that. Most roads made for cars around here are less than six meters wide, pathways are usually less than two meters.
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Well it seems that voting is slightly improving for us. Currently it is 374 for yes and
263 286 for no. Yesterday the difference was much bigger.
I noticed, that yesterday I could not voted more than once (even via different browsers) but today I did vote again!
So please vote against this stupid law every day 8)
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Yes vote at home, work, your friends house, on your phone, anywhere you can. Also send an email to all you friends family co workers and anyone that cares about you.
Click the link and vote NO!
http://blogs.windsorstar.com/2013/02/28/star-editorial-e-bikes-dont-belong-on-trails-and-pathways/
Gary
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Currently it is 374 for yes and 263 286 for no. Yesterday the difference was much bigger.
Hey guess what? If you ask the right people, you get the right answer:
(http://www.arhservices.co.uk/GoldenMotor/Pole_zps5ad00552.GIF)
Common sense finally prevails!
(http://www.arhservices.co.uk/GoldenMotor/emoticons/clap.GIF)
Administration determined that pathways have to be at least six metres wide to safely accommodate e-bikes.
They probably had these pictures in mind when they made that decision:
(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2645/3944242850_5776ec88b6_z.jpg)
(http://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-H-E9e8jR2T0/TpErXBRq52I/AAAAAAABibA/ecF49inseBQ/s720/tregdsfdsfsdf.jpg)
or perhaps they thought the "e" in ebikes is short for enormous:
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-MZ5BwM-ObCs/Ty-2dunGisI/AAAAAAAAAPk/kYRm8Sx54T8/s1600/germany-cycling-tandem-61.jpg)
A big bike obviously needs a bigger road (preferably without any stop junctions or low bridges).
Alan
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Thank you to anyone that voted. We are now way out front in this poll! Still if you have not voted do so anyway!
Gary
Hahaha, great pictures Alan!
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i am really surprised that many people voted yes. part of the beauty of having an electric bike is not having to license them.
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That's because the 395 "people" who voted "yes" don't ride ebikes or scooters, so it doesn't affect them!
If you look at the survey from their selfish point of view, as far as they are concerned, they are legally required to have their cars licensed, therefore everyone else using the public highway should also be forced into having their vehicles licensed too. ::)
Alan
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sad people think that way. we are protecting the environment and an ebike also cause no damage to roads like cars and trucks do. ohhh well guess that is some peoples stupid mentality
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There are mainly two groups of people people that are voting against Ebikes. There are the spandex bicycle riders that speed on the multi-use trails and find we are in the way when we are respecting he 20km speed limit and the car drivers that have to steer around us on the roads when they are drinking there coffee driving in to work in the morning.
Here in Mississauga Ebikes are accepted without any issues. Ebikes are already defined as bicycles nationally and provincially. so the city if mississauga accepts this definition and sees no reason for additional bylaws. We have a Mayor in Mississauga loved by all the residents. Her name is Hazel mcCallion, she has been in power for 34 years and the last several elections did not even campaign for votes. She says she is too busy running he city to waste time on that. The last half dozen or so elections she won with over 95 percent if he votes. It's an embarrassment for anyone to run against her so now people are creating phony issues to try and take her down. The people of mississauga see through that. Her common sense approach to issues is loved by all. Sadly this is her last term as she is getting quite old. Who knows what will come when she retires but she has created one of the greatest cities in the world and I am proud to live in it.
Google Hazel McCallion to read about her.
Toronto's mayors have always been a joke. The current mayor Rob Ford is currently in a scandal that claims he has been on video smoking crack. Other accusations are he is drunk in public a lot, fondles and insults woman, etc. who knows what is true but he is an embarrassment to Toronto.
Gary
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Completely ridiculous to license electrical bicycles as per EU standard. 25km/t is to low, 350W is also way too low for any fun. Here in Norway we have so many hills and strong wind. To have the same rules in Denmark that is flat as a pancake, and Norway that is like a rollercoaster is complete nonsense. Here in Norway it should be 35km/h and 400W. Can see too reason to license e-bikes, if that happens I don’t see any use of it. Then I would rather use my car and get a treadmill in my basement!
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I'm foreseeing the same unnecessary legislative future here in OZ if a key problem is not snuffed. So I chose to lay down an opinion here for all you power-bike peoples to ponder...
There is a problem with ridiculous behaviour when some people are granted power. Be that from tech which becomes cheaper over time or a crazy inheritance. Fools will destroy everything for the ones who can play respectively.
I'm sick of seeing chainsaw moods ripping through the streets being all loud and proud. Some electrics owners are no better, shadow passing pedestrians at like 40kmh and shiit grinning peddlers when passing. There is a huge list of bad behaviour I could add here but why?, you all know what I'm talking about. The point is bad form attracts attention which in turn equals bad PRESS!
The ones who are really passionate and serious about power mods need to lay down some strict education if this whole thing is going to work.
....that's just my view and education. >:(
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The problem we are having in Toronto is the Cyclist Union here is over 5000 members strong and they get a lot of exposure when they stand on their soapboxes and declare we are unsafe. Meanwhile everyone here knows its the cyclists that break more rules than anyone else. Have a look at his video and please comment.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bo_RE-yESJA
Gary
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I'm absolutely on the same page as you Gary and the video points out some great spectacles of really bad behaviour. As you said thou, pedal power has solid roots in lobby that has been built over a very long time. So, as E-bike riders were are going to have to deal with all this negative spam until the technology is more common place and more importantly the laws regarding E-bikes start falling into a more realistic set of rules, which unfortunately is going to take legal precedents and in turn a lot of time.
Cops, politicians and layers hate new tech especially if is something that is on a public road. The general rule is destroy what you don't understand until it is proven to be difficult to beat in a court.
So fight on all who love E-bike but don't forget your the enemy in most eyes, so beat them with kindness and seduce all the haters with impeccable form while riding your E-bike I say ;D
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If it don't break the standard lowest speed limit, which is 40 kph in our state, and average male or female can physically stop the bike from taking off the mark at WOT, then it doesn't need a license.
Some of those woppas over at ES would never qualify for on road use, Ebike are literally weapons at certain speeds. Canada is being a bitch don't you think. Maybe all that oil the PTV want to sell at a time during an oil boom, and the Tar sands spill, people are moving to Ebikes for alternative town travel, are trying to avert a green Ebike craze. Shame.
Pro cyclists, turn tard, popped one too many brain vessels racing each other up a hill, fried their brains inside heads in their head insulators, for god sake, they want to train us how to peddle and think it's a joke.
If Ebikes get regulated, screw them, all bikes should be regulated. Those Jocks ride their racers like it's a WMD. They get to the top of the hill, all hot and dizzy, swerving all over the bike lane. Ebike is safer than normal bikes. The standard chain and pedal setup for a starters is laughable in the face of a good old reliable gearless ebike motor.
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Gary, use diversion. Set up some solar panels, charge your bike with the sun, and make, the crowd go ohh ahh! Tesla did similar demonstrations, Edison did too.
Show them how you use this to run the business, how much you enjoy it, focus on the positives. Get some video of some exhausted, and disorientated riders. Point at the dangers of rider exhaustion. Point out how much more alert the ebike rider is cooled by the wind on a hot summer day and how we can wear safer helmets and body gear, because we do not get too hot pedaling, and require flimsy head wear for air flow. Turn up with a motor bike helmet and ask, WHO IS SAFER NOW? Show them how much more balance an Ebike has with out peddling, show them how slow the bike can go and compete with someone peddling,
I bet my ebike balances and can move slower using the throttle and motor with out the rider losing control than someone peddling slowly shifting their weight.
Then distract them to the damage oil has done and the importance that this industry is not extinguished by suspicious, and intimidatingly limiting regulations.
The ebike is sleep, demand and deliver, compared to the the alternative ICE, No heat wasted, no noise, so we are not hooning, waking up the neighbours with our monster machines. It's totally inapropriate to regulate small to medium sized, all the reasons why we regulate motor vehicles do not apply to Ebikes what-so-ever.
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Have heard a lot about the weird political decisions that have affected Canada in recent times. We in Australia are now beginning another elitist right period of stupid anti citizen arrogance too where the controllers become controlling.
To hear your government has allowed cities / municipalities to make their own (and consequently eventually many and varied) decisions about farcical ebike licensing etc shows a classic half baked attempt to avoid political responsibilities hand-balling a perceived problem satisfying a loud minority of voters over to bunches of anally retentive nongs.
Therefore, wherever anti ebike licensing / registration laws are created begin your own movement demanding legislation for consequential equality on the roads... that is IE "one lane one vehicle" and so forth. And be prepared to always ride in the middle of your side of the road. That will scare the pants off even the most uncommitted citizen when they realize the repercussions of giving power to the loud numb nut minorities.
Just be sure and ready to continue the fight for the long haul and eventually common sense will turn things around as political opportunities change.
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I called the SAAQ to ask about registering an electric bike as a scooter, the woman on the phone said to me where did you bough this scooter? I said I built it, she thenb said you cannot register it since you need a bills of sale to register it.
Then I said if I sell it to myself and make a bill for it it's enough she said no because I'm not a company and she said I have to go thru the normal process of registering a custom made motorcycle with crash test and engeneer test etc...
So if you want to register an e-bike you need to spend at least 10k$ on it first for the plate.
This is why you don't see many electric scooter around.
If they ask you to license it, sell your bike and buy a big pick-up from 1950 without any safety belt, because it's legal!
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I have not been to this thread in quite a while. I thought I would post an update.
http://www.thestar.com/news/city_hall/2014/01/03/city_staff_recommend_escooters_be_allowed_in_toronto_bike_lanes.html
We are seeing a change in Toronto, the land of greed. It seems the transportation dept has realized you can't kill the Ebike so now they are recommending the same privileges we have in Mississauga. It is still a long way from becoming law. But it's getting closer.
Of course the Toronto star is not putting up a poll or allowing responses. They hate Ebikes and don't want to see any opinions different then there own.
Gary
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Here is the actual recommendations by the transportation dept.
http://app.toronto.ca/tmmis/viewAgendaItemHistory.do?item=2014.PW28.2
Gary
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Politicians are being either pressured or gaining something from this.. Sad to say sounds like ebikers will face touch restrictions and more regulations? ebikes is recreational and clean energy and of all things great exercise for older people who can not ride a bike. But they could get out on an ebike and used their PAS. People by their own natural instincts do not like change. I believe if motorcycles become popular on electric energy instead of gasoline. It would help the public to understand and except ebikes. Gary maybe you could personally invite an open invitation to the Toronto newspaper. From all the good things I hear about you. You could make a positive difference.
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I am for licensing e-bikes over 1000 watts. At least give me the chance to legally ride something over 500 watts and smaller than an all out electric motorcycle! I live in BC, Canada and contacted ICBC (provincial government insurance) and was told that anything larger than 500 watts is illegal under all circumstances and to insure it as a 'low speed motorcycle' it could only be made from Transport Canada approved motorcycle parts, what a joke. A 500 watt e-bike on 48 volts is just as fast as one on 3000 watts at 48 volts, just doesn't do as well on the hills. Why is it I can ride my manual bicycle at whatever the posted road speed is, but I am limited to 32km/h when powered? The laws are not keeping up with the technology, they are written for the 'toy' e-bikes that are generally commercially available, not the new generation of bikes like many of us build. My commuter has head/tail/brake lights, double crown front suspension fork, 8" disc brakes, 3" wide rear tire, it's already a low speed motorcycle, yes it tops out about 60km/h but I'm not going to go that fast on a busy bike/multi use trail. Afterall, your average car is capable of going well in excess of 100km/h but most of us wouldn't do that past a school. >500 watt up to 5000 watt should be insurable like a moped :o
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My letter to the Editior at the Windsor Star: This Poll is tainted by the prejudicial nature of the article that announces the issue, which clearly presents electric bikes and their riders in a negative light. Your publications fails to provide a counter argument and is thus more a personal rant than true journalism. None the less, the poll thus far clearly shows the public is against requiring more regulations, licenses and insurance on e-bikes which is encouraging. Ontario as usual leads the way with anal regulation loving complainers who want more rules and restrictions on everything, which has made it the most over regulated rule laden Province in Canada with the most flow busting, passive aggressive drivers in all of North America! Lighten Up Windsor Star, nowhere else in the world requires these sorts on bans and crackdown laws, and they are doing just fine.
The Poll is now 65 % against!
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We must also include electric wheelchairs and mobility vehicles, because those are also "unlicensed, their drivers are uninsured and it’s not uncommon to find them in the middle of the road, or cruising down a city sidewalk".
It probably won't be too long before being allowed to walk or run in any public place becomes an offence while using any form of electrical assistance, so those at risk of being caught will have to make sure they switch off their pacemakers (or remove them completely) before venturing out, or face prosecution....
Actually we are already at many of these places/outcomes...
For example the city I live in bans any wheeled vehicles from public paths, sidewalks, etc. The province left it to the municipalities to decide how to address vehicles in their regions.
As a result in many places in Canada, it is illegal to use a mobility device for legitimate needs... Technically the province, says in such cases, I'm supposed to be a pedestrian on the roadway (facing traffic, on shoulder, etc.)
But even then municipalities can say that vehicles not approved to operate on public highways can't be used on roadways... Thus the moment I wheel out of my home, I'm automatically a criminal no matter what I do...
It's more frustrating when cops stop me to lecture me on being on the roads & breaking the law & how I should be on the sidewalk... How can you be a cop & know nothing of the law you enforce?
I always carry a copy of the ministry of transportation laws saying I'm supposed to be on the road but if the cops a jerk, he will pull out the municipal laws that say otherwise & seemingly trump provincial law because of these fence riding idiots!
As if that's not bad enough, if I take my meds as prescribed, in ways that make me functional & are otherwise lawful; then dare to use my powerchair to have any mobility & not be bed/floor-bound...
I'm also automatically a criminal, even if in my own home, not moving & just in the chair to lessen my suffering... I am a criminal without any rights or freedoms & subject to harsh, cruel, unusual & abusive punishments!
Don't misunderstand me, I do not support impaired driving & I don't care if it's a result of fatigue, stress, drugs, alcohol, distractions, illness, disabilities, etc!
But the reality is, if I didn't take my meds, I would have zero function & I would be impaired! But because I take meds that effect others differently then me, I'm assumed to be impaired when I am actually not!
Besides which, I self regulate, if I can't focus wholly on driving, then I don't go out & drive, no matter what is or isn't in my system! Heck, I voluntarily surrendered my drivers license without having to because I knew I was not safe to drive! That's despite that everyone who knew me swore I was the best, most responsible driver they knew of!
It didn't matter to me, I was not going to put other people in danger just to get my thrills as a driver!
When the time came that I needed a powerchair, I demanded a comprehensive physiological assessment of my abilities to prove I could safely operate it! I also demanded & paid out of my own pocket for a special kill switch/sensor that can tell when I'm not safe to operate it & not allow it to be used!
Yet I am penalized because of my attention to detail! However the blind mother (not a mom or even a women) who ran me down while speeding & then fled the scene, abandoning me to my fate! This blind guy who still had his license because his doctor was too afraid to stand up to him & do his job! Then when he finally was brought before the courts, because he's rich, he sole punishment was he was not allowed to continue driving!!!
Did I miss something? Since when are blind people who can't see a giant brightly lit/decorated powerchair, giant orange/white service dog & person in daylight, allowed to be driving in the 1st place!
What kind of punishment is that? You are not allowed to drive but you drive & your punishment for driving when not allowed to drive is your told you can't keep driving? Obviously they don't care that we say they can't drive, because they continue driving none the less!
He destroyed my life & took away everything I had but he does not even get a slap on the wrist because he's rich?
It's the same with these people who continue to drink & drive despite countless charges & convictions for drink driving! Then they leave the courthouse with a slap on the wrist & get in their cars to drive down to the bar from the courthouse! When is enough, enough?
Yet, they are so obsessed with the disabled touching a drop of alcohol or people who care about the environment, choosing to be the example/ stimulus for change the world desperately needs?
Is it perhaps that their guilty conscience won't let them sleep easy! Perhaps, they hope that if they remove all those pesky reminders of their own malfeasance & corruption, they will be able to ignore the tell-tale heartbeat of their own guilty conscience?!?
Adam
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Licensesing an e-bike is just the first step towards taxing them as well as cars and motorbikes.
In my country (Denmark) ebikes must stop adding power above 25 km/h only have 250w and only work if pedals moves, above that its considered a moped which has to be licensed, insurance etc, if it goes past 30 km/h you need a drivers license which you can only get when turned 18 and only drive on road, not on bikepath, if it goes past 45 km/h it is considered a motorbike, which also adds full taxation (180% of vehicle price) totally lunacy as its still only a bike.
Normal bikes don't apply these rules, you can drive 60 km/h on bikepath with no helmet among other bikes going 20 legally?
Why don't common sense rule? You cant buy a car which is unable to break every speedlimit, still its not illegal to own and drive them, only to break the speedlimit, shouldnt it be the same for ebikes?
I find it hard to apply to rules who does not make sense.
Just my 1/50 $ :-)
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I don't agree, and I don't even think the current speed limit for E bikes is proper. They should split E bikes into two different categories. The large Ebikes that look more like a scooter, I can see the speed limit. They are heavy, and if they someone or something. They can cause quite a bit of damage... However, a regular mountain bike or hybrid bike with a E kit put on it, is still a bike at the end of the day. You remove the kit, or the battery dies and it still functions, like a normal bike mostly.. Aside from it being much heavier than the average bike. Bikes with E kits on them are called Pedelec in Toronto. I have a road bike, and with the proper wind conditions, I can get the bike up to 30-35kph and keep it at that speed. If I have a strong tail wind, I can mantain a speed of 40-45 kph... How is this any different than a pedelec ? The only real difference, is it's lighter and doesn't have a battery on the back end.
A pedelec (from pedal electric cycle) is a bicycle where the rider's pedalling is assisted by a small electric motor; thus it is a type of low-powered e-bike. However, unlike some other types of e-bikes, pedelecs are classified as conventional bicycles in many countries by road authorities rather than as a type of electric moped. Pedelecs include an electronic controller which cuts power to the motor when the rider is not pedalling or when a certain speed – usually 25 km/h (16 mph) – is reached. Pedelecs are useful for people who ride in hilly areas or in strong headwinds. While a pedelec can be any type of bicycle, a pedelec city bike is very common. A conventional bicycle can be converted to a pedelec with the addition of the necessary parts, i.e. motor, battery etc.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedelec