GoldenMotor.com Forum
General Category => Electric Motorcycle Conversion => Topic started by: Knightgreider on September 18, 2018, 02:36:17 AM
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Hey everyone, I bought the non-hub 3kw fan cooling motor and the VEC200/72Vdc controller to convert a 1980 Garelli super sport into an electric cafe racer. This is my first major project. I recently joined so I could figure this out. I am so glad that this exists! I thought it would be plug and play, it was... almost. My project is using a contactor and 2 custom made 36v 10.5ah 18650 battery packs wired in series. My problem is that I hooked everything up yesterday and it worked!... for 3 seconds. Now every time I turn on the switch on the throttle grip the contactor turns on but the motor doesn't turn over at all. I double-checked all the connections and saw if I was getting the right voltage still to the controller. The controller blinks when the batteries are connected but I never figured out how to turn it off besides the switch on the throttle twist grip. I still can add an on-off switch, I suppose in one of the connections between the batteries and the controller.
The moderator "BikeMad" gave me some good advice about my project.
I am looking to see what he meant by a GM brake lever for regen. I thought that it had regenerative braking already? He also said a brake switch. I didn't buy a brake switch when I bought my kit. I was looking through all the images online and I can't seem to find it. He said if I rigged one up, make sure it's turned off. Has anyone else rigged up a brake switch or have had this problem? If so, how do I do that? Do I need a GM Brake lever? I found this topic:
https://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?topic=5874.0
(https://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?topic=5874.0)But I don't know if this pertains to me.
I plugged my controller into the computer and it still appears to be working correctly. So I know it's not destroyed.
Would this work for what I need? https://www.goldenmotor.ca/products/Three-Button-Switch-for-External-Controllers.html (https://www.goldenmotor.ca/products/Three-Button-Switch-for-External-Controllers.html)
Attached is my nerd self with the bike yesterday.
Thank you for any help I can get!
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This is what I meant by the GM brake lever:
(https://goldenmotor.com/accessories/images/des_db1.jpg)
It incorporates a switch that stops the motor power and simultaneously engages the regen when the lever is pulled.
If you don't have GM brake levers (or any other form of brake switch) then you don't need to worry, as not having a brake switch will not cause your non-running problem. ;)
If the controller has full battery voltage across its input terminals (at least 72V) then the contactor is obviously closing correctly.
You might want to consider some form of precharge system (if not already incorporated) to extend the life of the contactor's contacts.
It is difficult to tell from your photo which wires are connected from the throttle unit and where they are connected to. Perhaps you can provide some more details on these connections and how the contactor is switched (I presume the battery feed goes to the throttle switch and then back to the 72V contactor's excitation terminal).
If you are using a 48V GM throttle, the green Battery gauge LED wire should not be connected, as 72~84V is likely to overload it causing it to run hot and probably fail very quickly. :o
Failure of the Battery gauge circuit board due to higher than expected voltage should not present a problem, unless it failed in a short circuit state and the subsequent high current burns the wires coming from the throttle. :-\
The number of regular blinks from the controller should hopefully indicate where the fault lies, but you will need to check the table on page 5 of the user guide (https://www.goldenmotor.com/controllers/GoldenMotor%20FOC%20Motor%20Controller%20Guide.pdf) for more details.
Does the controller or motor make any noise when the throttle is operated?
Alan
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Hi Alan, I was on vacation sorry for the late response.
Were you talking about this GM Brake kit?
https://www.goldenmotor.ca/products/Brake-Levers-for-External-Controllers.html (https://www.goldenmotor.ca/products/Brake-Levers-for-External-Controllers.html)
I will look at the controller tomorrow when I have time to go to the garage. The controller was blinking. The controller or throttle doesn't make any noise when operated. :-\
Depending on my diagnosis I will get the GM brake kit and another throttle if I need one; based on the blinks right?
Thanks again for your help!
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Were you talking about this GM Brake kit?
https://www.goldenmotor.ca/products/Brake-Levers-for-External-Controllers.html (https://www.goldenmotor.ca/products/Brake-Levers-for-External-Controllers.html)
Yes, but as I previously stated, if they are not fitted, they will not be causing the problem. They would only cause the motor not to run if they were fitted and one of them (or both) was not fully released and was still activating the brake switch:
(https://i.imgur.com/RNYUvls.png)
(Click picture to enlarge.)
Hopefully the above picture will make it a little bit clearer.
(https://i.imgur.com/FnmD5lE.png)
You now need to determine what the fault code is (the number of regular blinks) to hopefully locate the problem.
Alan
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Hey there it sounds like you may have the same issue I did with the Hall sensors. See my previous post the one right before this one. I have the same motor and speed control. When I hooked mine all up it spun one time than would not work. I found it was a Hall sensor combination issue. If you have issues or more questions let me know.
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Hi BikeMad, I don't see any picture. :(
And tonight, I'll look at my hall cables and fault code of the controller. But I don't know if was the same issue entirely. I only got my motor to turn over once... I don't have any brake switches so I thought I needed to connect one for them not to overload the throttle switch?
The throttle lights do flash for a split second, then nothing.
Thanks, everyone.
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BikeMad, I was at my job, they must have blocked the imaging service maybe. I am looking at it now. I gotcha. I don't have anything hooked up to the brake cable. Could have damaged my controller when I turned it on?
I got 5 blinking lights on the controller. So I tried everything that MotoLittle did and I found that whatever combination that I put the hall cables in I always get the 5 blinking lights.
:-\
I am getting around 72v on all of the hall cables when I check them when the batteries are plugged in.
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Mine threw similar codes like that on the controller when I had a setting on the computer out of parameter it didnt like. Once I changed it back it worked again. Hope this helps! It took me two weeks of pulling my hair out and help from this amazing forum to figure it out. Also sweet build!!! :)
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Hi Motolittle, do you remember what your settings were on that controller? I have mine set to default. I am interested to see what you changed to get it to work.
Thanks!
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Hey, guys, I am at a loss in trying to figure this out. I have been going over this for hours today and troubleshooting what it could be. I found this forum post https://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?topic=6586.0 (https://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?topic=6586.0) and it kind of scared me because I started it up without the 5v on/off switch and no brakes. Did I damage the hall sensors in the motor? It keeps giving me the code- “Hall input is abnormal.” And I am scared I damaged the controller or motor when I hooked it up last week.
I just ordered the on/off switch and the brakes, so we'll see if that matters when I get them. ::) Fingers crossed!
Thanks, everyone for any help you can give!
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Your thread link just goes back to this thread... ::) But looking at a wiring diagram for your controller it looks like you need a switch, or at least a jumper on the E lock connector in order to test.
As the contoller needs energized (ignition wire)to put out 5 vdc for the hall sensor operation...
Missing this switch, or the brake switches will NOT harm the controller. But no E lock or ignition switch will keep it from operating.
And 72 volts at the hall sensors seems inaccurate. These would include the small yellow, green, blue, red and black wires going to the motor black cable connector. With 5 vdc going to the red and black wires with the controller energized.
(https://www.goldenmotor.com/controllers/VEC%20Controller%20Wiring%20Diagram.jpg)
Note: I'm just a humble Magic Pie 5 owner with no hands on experience with your system... But I can read a wiring diagram if this is yours... ;)
Regards,
T.C.
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Whoops, I meant this thread. https://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?topic=5957.15 (https://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?topic=5957.15) Particularlly the post about how to the Hall Sensors could be damaged because when you check the Hall sensors in the motor, they all share the same +5V supply as the throttle Hall sensor. Do you think that if I get the e-lock from GM I won't have a problem.
In the time being, I don't know how to create a jumper wire on the e-lock connector? What plug-port to what plug-port would give me the jumper connection? According to the wiring diagram orange to red identified in the text, but in the images of the wires, I don't see them.
It was about 72v at the Yellow, Green, and Blue hall connections to the controller when I put it voltmeter on the negative connection in the controller?
Also a question for when I get this working, the +12v would work for lights and other 12v applications that is left over from the ICE components? Thanks.
Sorry, trying to learn as I go through the assembly.
Thanks everyone, you are all so helpful!
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Do you think that if I get the e-lock from GM I won't have a problem.
I think that this will solve your issue...
In the time being, I don't know how to create a jumper wire on the e-lock connector? What plug-port to what plug-port would give me the jumper connection? According to the wiring diagram orange to red identified in the text, but in the images of the wires, I don't see them.
E-lock connector is on the bottom right. Top connector of the group. Red goes to Battery +. And is switched to orange, but on my screen the wire looks pink. If you hook up the red wire to the battery +, then you could just jumper across the connector's pins or holes... don't know which your working with. Or a straight jumper between battery + and the orange (pink) pin. Most controller activation circuits as this are typically low amperage so I don't think that would be a problem.
It was about 72v at the Yellow, Green, and Blue hall connections to the controller when I put it voltmeter on the negative connection in the controller?
I'm thinking you were testing at the main PHASE wire connections The main large colored wires going to the motor? At U,V, & W... Other wise we have serious issues. :o
Also a question for when I get this working, the +12v would work for lights and other 12v applications that is left over from the ICE components? Thanks.
Typically this is a very low power source from the controller. Perhaps less than .5 amp. And therefore probably unsuitable. I'll try to find out exactly. Unless Alan would chime in. :)
Sorry, trying to learn as I go through the assembly.
Me too! ;)
This is how someone made a jumper...
(https://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5957.0;attach=7533;image)
Oh, and in that thread you referenced. It sounds like the owner had inadvertently supplied 48 volts to the throttle hall sensor because he assumed the wiring was correct. Never assume any thing, especially wire COLORS! As a result he cooked it. :( And since the throttle hall sensor shares the same power source as the motor hall sensors. It was suggested that they all be checked.
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It was about 72v at the Yellow, Green, and Blue hall connections to the controller when I put it voltmeter on the negative connection in the controller?
I'm thinking you were testing at the main PHASE wire connections The main large colored wires going to the motor? At U,V, & W... Other wise we have serious issues. :o
Are you sure the voltmeter was on the Negative controller connection? I'm hoping you were incorrectly measuring the voltage in relation to the Battery Positive (Red) instead of the battery - (Black) as this might explain why such a high voltage (~5V less than battery voltage) was measured at the Hall sensors (or the Phase wires).
(https://i.imgur.com/FnmD5lE.png)
However, if the meter was actually connected to the Battery Negative as stated, the only other causes I can think of would be:
- A direct short circuit between the +5V wire (or possibly the Throttle signal wire) and the Battery Feed wire (Normally used to power the LED Battery Gauge) on the Throttle wiring/connections. :o
- The battery Gauge wire and +5V wire have been incorrectly connected (transposed) causing full battery voltage to be sent to the Throttle Hall sensor instead of +5V. This could blow the throttle Hall sensor allowing Battery voltage to flow back along the throttle signal wire to the controller :o
- The battery Gauge wire and Throttle signal wire have been incorrectly connected (transposed) causing full battery voltage to be sent to the Throttle's Hall sensor. This might also blow the throttle Hall sensor, possibly allowing Battery voltage to feed back along the +5V wire to the controller :o
Unfortunately, if any of the above has occurred, I suspect the controller may have been damaged, as a 5V circuit is unlikely to survive for very long on a 72V supply, and something is likely to die. :(
Also a question for when I get this working, the +12v would work for lights and other 12v applications that is left over from the ICE components? Thanks.
Typically this is a very low power source from the controller. Perhaps less than .5 amp. And therefore probably unsuitable. I'll try to find out exactly. Unless Alan would chime in. :)
It is my understanding that the +12V high brake (optional) wire is used as an alternative input to operate the regen and power cutoff. This +12V signal input would come from the vehicle's existing 12V supply (a 12V battery and/or inverter) which would be switched via the original brake light switches.
This wire would simply connect into the brake light bulb feed wire so that it receive 12V input to operate the regen and power cutoff whenever the brakes are applied (just like the brake light bulb does).
If your bike already had a 12V system for lights, indicators, horn and radio etc. this enables the 12V output from the bike's original brake switches to be used to trigger the regen, cancel the cruise and safely cut the motor power when either of the brakes are applied.
I wouldn't expect the controller to actually supply a 12V feed via this wire, but as I don't have a controller to physically inpspect, I am unable to confirm my suspicions. :-\
It appears that we are all in the same boat here, as we are all still learning! ;)
Alan
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I wouldn't expect the controller to actually supply a 12V feed via this wire, but as I don't have a controller to physically inpspect, I am unable to confirm my suspicions. :-\
Alan
Oppsy, it has input but no output... :-[ LOL even less than I thought. :) Thanks Alan.
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OK well, I ordered brakes and the 2 button switch and they came today. Only to find out they are not the same plug. (see picture attached). Anyone know what type of plug adapter or plug I can buy to get the switches to connect to the controller's pre-existing plugs? I didn't apply a jumper because I was just going to wait till the 2 button switch and the brakes came. Ugh... :-\
I also did the testing again on the different phase wires on the controller. It looks like I was getting more like 2v to the negative wire. I am assuming this is a good sign!? :D
As far as the 12v circuit, does anyone have any other suggestions for powering or adding other older ICE components from the controller? Or would I have to buy a 12v battery?
Anyway, thanks for all your hard work helping me everyone. I think I'm close! I hope!
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As far as the 12v circuit, does anyone have any other suggestions for powering or adding other older ICE components from the controller? Or would I have to buy a 12v battery?
You could power it from your 72V battery through a suitable DC/DC converter. ;)
You should be able to use this 36-72V to 12V DC/DC converter (https://www.ebay.com/itm/DC-DC-36-72V-To-12V-10A-120W-Step-down-Converter-Adapter-For-Electric-Bicycle/372433057645) to power indicators, horn and headlight etc. as long as the total consumption is less than 120W:
(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/PK4AAOSwWEBblzkA/s-l1600.jpg) (https://www.ebay.com/itm/DC-DC-36-72V-To-12V-10A-120W-Step-down-Converter-Adapter-For-Electric-Bicycle/372433057645)
The battery wire on the converter should be fed from the output side of the contactor so that it is automatically disconnected when the power to the controller is turned off.
I don't know where you will find matching connectors to suit your controller, you may have to use a suitable matching pair of male and female connectors to replace the existing ones on both the throttle and the controller if you cannot find the correct type that fits.
Alan
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Thanks Alan, I was hoping to not have to strip the controller wires but I can. I bought some connectors and will try again on Monday.
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Any luck getting it running sir? I have been away working...
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I can send you my parameters from the controller if you desire.
After finally figuring out my Hall configurations I can reverse or put the motor back to standard rotation with no issues and no hesitation. Before I had it figured out my symptoms were all plugged in and wired to the diagram and when I gave it throttle it would move for a second than nothing. If I spun the motor by hand it would spin when throttle was applied but would not spin on its own and would definitely not pull a load. Thanks to Alan and a whole lot of testing I just swapped Hall configurations till it worked in the direction I needed! Hope this helps!! I will try to upload my parameters:
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Hi Motolittle! Yeah, I tried all of your configurations. All of them didn't work. I went through each one on Friday one by one. Still, the controller blinks 5 times as soon as I plug in the battery. Which says in the manual "HALL input is abnormal" https://www.goldenmotor.com/controllers/GoldenMotor%20FOC%20Motor%20Controller%20Guide.pdf (https://www.goldenmotor.com/controllers/GoldenMotor%20FOC%20Motor%20Controller%20Guide.pdf)
Today I wired up the Brakes and plugged them in. And I figured out that when I plug the battery in I instantly get the light blinking. Then when I hit the button the throttle to turn it on, the contactor connects and then I turn the throttle, nothing happens as before. It's like I didn't change anything.
Today I also made an e-lock jumper. When I made it, I plugged it in and then plugged the batteries and instantly the contactor came on. SO, I think that there is something wrong with the controller or the hall sensor like what was said before. I attached all the pictures with my setup.
I am pretty frustrated. I really hope I didn't blow the controller when I plugged it in. What should I test on the controller? Or can someone look at the pictures and give me some advice on what to test? I guess I don't understand where the hall sensor is located, because I am re-reading that it is most likely damaged. Is it in the motor casing or the controller? If I blew one or more of them would I just have to replace the whole motor or could I buy a replacement part? I changed all my software is back to factory settings.
Thank you for any help you can provide! Everyone has been super helpful so far!
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The Hall sensors are 3 tiny sensors inside the motor. I don't move the sensors as they are in the motor, I simply swap the Hall sensor wires and/ or the phase wires. Also I thought I blew my Hall sensors too because it wouldn't work properly. Also I welded on the frame
With the motor phase wires touching and I thought I fried them but thankfully I didn't....
I cannot upload my pictures because it says they are too large... make sure under settings number of pole pairs is 4. Otherwise leave it stock except turning down the amps it pulls because mine overdrew amps on stock settings.
I think your issue is a Hall sensor issue and a programming or wiring issue...
An idea: remove everything except the throttle and motor controller and motor and battery. I don't use a contractor just the e lock on the throttle. I think if you refine your system you can troubleshoot it easier.
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https://youtu.be/Y4O9YQG08vE
Here is a link on how to check Hall sensors. I know not your motor but same principle. Whole system plugged in and voltage on.
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Hey Motolittle. I can see what you are saying. I don’t know how I would hook up the motor without the contactor. ??? I do think the cables could be hooked up wrong though. I only had a wiring picture to go by.
I really want to see your setup. If you make you images below 2000kb you can upload them. You should be able to do it in ms paint or some other program by just shrinking the number of pixels. I teach digital media.
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Another motor hall sensor testing resource...
http://www.ebikes.ca/documents/HallSensorTestingFinal.pdf (http://www.ebikes.ca/documents/HallSensorTestingFinal.pdf)
I keep thinking your not going to have 5vdc supply...
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(https://www.goldenmotor.com/hubmotors/hubmotor-imgs/3-5kwBLDCmotor%20B.jpg)
Here is a diagram on how to hook it up with or without the contactor. Some people have reported faulty contactor as well... I don't think this is your problem but it simplifies the system...
My controller blink and would give no output on several occasions when I put a parameter in the programming that it didn't like even when it let me upload it... I believe you said you restored factory settings though...
Do you have a bms on your batteries that is limiting output ? This would starve the motor controller and shut it down too...
EDIT: Direct link to picture added
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I am getting ready for my wedding and plan on working on this next week.
I already took out the contactor and found no difference. I will try to troubleshoot it with software next week. No BMS on my batteries, but I did balance them with this calculator https://secondlifestorage.com/repackr.php (https://secondlifestorage.com/repackr.php) before I put them together. I think I am close, it's so frustrating!
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Hey friend any luck getting it going?
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I haven't had a chance to work on it. Hoping to do it tonight. I will continue to update. I did remove the contactor before and am still having the same problem. I am going to try to play with the settings in the software tonight.
Thanks! I think I am close!
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Ok, some updates today. Sort of progress?
As I said I got rid of the contactor, and hooked everything back up. Then I played with the software and changed the hall angle to 60iã in the software and downloaded it into the controller and no LED blinks on the controller!!! Then I tried to turn the throttle, nothing. Then I held the brake in and then got 15 LED blinks? I can't find anything in the controller manual for 15 blinks. Does anyone know where to look for this? I played with the negative hall angle a lot. The only one that gave me no blinks was the 60iã instead of the default 120iã.
I might be doing something wrong because I had solder the brake wires together because the plug was wrong. So I might have soldered them the wrong way. I went from brake blue wire to the red wire on the plug, which goes into the controller and the red on the brake wires to black wire on the connectors I got. Do you think it would be wired incorrectly?
Just to be clear, the throttle button does enable the system to turn on right?
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The brake switch wiring is fine, it is not reliant upon polarity as it simply closes the circuit via the switch.
I suspect that the 15 blinks would indicate a short circuit fault on the brake wires, but only if it occurred when the brakes were released.
If your throttle has been wired as per the previous (with contactor) diagram, the throttle switch should operate the contactor.
The e-lock feed appears to be fed directly from the battery + connection on the contactor, but I don't know whether this is intentional or whether the diagram has been drawn incorrectly.
I would have thought that the e-lock would also be switched via the throttle switch like this:
(https://i.imgur.com/WGddmZ0.png)
As the five blinks related to the Hall sensors, have you actually checked the output of the Hall sensors as previously suggested by Motolittle and Tomycat?
All three sensor signals should switch between ~0 and ~5V four times for every complete shaft revolution.
Alan
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Oh yeah I forgot I was doing that then my battery died in the voltmeter! Duh! I got a new one and now I measured all the values by pushing the black lead into the black wire and the following values are below.
White: .18v
Yellow: 2.9v
Blue: 2.9v
Green: 2.9v
Red: 1.4v
So everything is below 5v in the hall sensors I suppose then they aren't destroyed? It's strange that the white and red wires aren't 2.9v like the rest of them. Any ideas on why some of them are lower or how to fix them?
That makes sense about the e-lock turning the contactor on. I just hooked up the elock cable to the main "b+" on the controller. So I assume as soon as I plug the battery in, it's on?
Thanks Bikemad.
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I presume that the 2.9V reading on the Yellow, Green and Blue Hall sensor wires is constant, and does not vary as they are supposed to when the motor shaft is rotated.
Unfortunately, the Red wire (+5V supply) is only reading 1.4V instead of the required ~5V, and this would definitely explain why the motor doesn't run.
I would say that either the +5V supply from the controller is being overloaded, or the 5V regulator inside the controller is no longer functioning correctly, and without the +5V supply, the Hall sensors cannot operate.
I suggest that you unplug the throttle and the Hall sensors and measure the voltage between the Red and Black wires on the controller's Hall sensor connector. If the Red wire still reads ~1.4V with the throttle and Hall sensors disconnected, it would indicate that the 5V regulator inside the controller has failed. :(
However, if you find that you have a reading of ~5V with the throttle and Hall sensors unplugged, try plugging the throttle back in to see if the reading across the Red and Black wires drops to 1.4V again. If it does, it may be a fault within the throttle unit that is overloading the +5V supply from the controller.
(https://i.imgur.com/FnmD5lE.png)
If the voltage doesn't drop when you plug the throttle in, try plugging the Hall sensors back in again to see if the original fault is still present (only 1.4V instead of ~5V).
If it reverts back to 1.4V, it will either be a weak 5V regulator inside the controller or possibly a faulty Hall sensor (or partial short circuit within the Hall sensor wiring) that is overloading the controller's 5V regulated output.
Without measuring the current (mA) flowing through the Red wire, it is difficult to pinpoint exactly where the problem lies.
The 0.18V on the White lead is probably normal, and this will vary in relation to the resistance/temperature of the thermal sensor inside the motor.
I played with the negative hall angle a lot. The only one that gave me no blinks was the 60iã instead of the default 120iã.
According to other posts on this forum, the Hall Electrical Angle should be 120, the Phase Angle Offset should be -120, and the Number of Pole Pairs should be 4.
I suggest you put these to where they should be in case it was just a throttle fault, or if your controller needs to be returned for further testing. :-\
Alan
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Yes the e lock button on the throttle enables the whole system. I will check my main parameters and see what I can give you to compare
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I changed the pole pairs to 4 and the angle to 120iã which gave me the 5 LED Blinks. So I still have the hall issue. So then I checked what Bikemad said. I disconnected the Hall sensor cable and the throttle and the red cable was outputting 5.3v which was a good sign. Then I plugged the throttle back in and the red cable was only outputting 1.66v. So that means that it's the throttle that is shorting the controller right? Should I buy a new throttle? Or how would I fix the one I have
If I get a new throttle, I would probably get it through the Goldenmotor Canada. Will it have different plugs? https://www.goldenmotor.ca/products/48V-Twist-Throttle-for-External-Controllers.html (https://www.goldenmotor.ca/products/48V-Twist-Throttle-for-External-Controllers.html) Is this the one I should get? I know I've seen posts on here for others that used this throttle grip that is 48v.
Thanks everyone.
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I also had irregular and lower than 5v measurements for my hall sensors too but everything worked after finding correct sensor / phase wire combo. Best of luck!
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My parameters:
Hall angle 120
Phase angle 120
Number of pole pairs 4
Rated rpm 7000
Other important:
Starting phase current : 10
Max phase current : 120
Max rated phase current 120
Battery main amps 80
Throttle mode : soft start
Acceleration 120 rpm
These are what I like after testing but worked for my application: electric Yamaha 350 dual sport mod
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I disconnected the Hall sensor cable and the throttle and the red cable was outputting 5.3v which was a good sign. Then I plugged the throttle back in and the red cable was only outputting 1.66v. So that means that it's the throttle that is shorting the controller right?
If the voltage drop is due to a faulty throttle (and not a weak 5V regulator output) then a replacement throttle should hopefully cure the problem. But if the throttle is not faulty, the fault will be within the controller.
I suggest that you unplug the throttle and plug the Hall sensors back in again and re-check the voltage across the Black and Red wires again.
If the voltage drops below 3.5V with just the Hall sensors connected, then it is more likely to be a controller fault than a fault within the throttle and one (or more) of the motor Hall sensors.
If the +5V supply does not drop below 3.5V with just the Hall sensors connected, then it is most likely to be a fault within the throttle unit or its wiring.
I don't know whether the connections on the linked throttle (https://www.goldenmotor.ca/products/48V-Twist-Throttle-for-External-Controllers.html) will be the same as your original throttle. Perhaps Gary (GM Canada) can provide more details.
The 24V, 36V and 48V voltage rating of the throttles only relates to the LED battery gauge, which you should really be disconnected if you are using a 72V battery.
(https://i.imgur.com/RnJNLxX.png)
It should be possible to repair your existing throttle by replacing the internal Hall sensor (Honeywell SS49E or equivalent):
(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/0NkAAOSwxN5WUFYz/s-l500.jpg) (https://www.ebay.com/itm/10pcs-New-Hall-element-49E-OH49E-SS49E-linear-Hall-switch-NEW/221946983138)
Unfortunately, the twist throttles can sometimes be difficult to dismantle (https://electricbike.com/forum/forum/builds/ebike-building-directions/48457-1st-build-e-bike-rider-magic-pie-v5-rear-bottle-batt-52v-11-5ah-huffy-parkside?p=57489#post57489) to gain access to the Hall sensor and LED Battery Gauge circuit board.
Alan
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Well I have good news and bad news.
I followed Motolittle's software stats and still am getting the hall sensor problems. So that sucks. But, I did follow Bikemad's recommendation, and I unplugged the throttle and plugged the hall sensors in and found that the red wire was giving me 4.94v! So that means that the controller isn't screwed up! But that does mean that the throttle is dropping the power below the threshold for the controller. So now I am currently trying to disassemble the throttle body and it's pretty tough. I am trying to follow Gary (GM Canada)'s guide. I am currently trying to get a paint can opener and bend it to release the plastic latches to remove the hall sensor cable and the 72v cable that could be drawing the extra power from the controller as stated from Bikemad's post.
I just ordered the Honeywell SS49E sensor. I am assuming when I get this throttle apart I will find where the original hall sensor is and just replace the leads?
Thanks again everyone. This forum is amazing!
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Great news on the voltage come back! ;D Bending a paint can opener...lol! You gots to be looking at this https://electricbike.com/forum/forum/kits/golden-motor-magic-pie/56907-need-access-to-wiring-of-luna-full-twist-throttle (https://electricbike.com/forum/forum/kits/golden-motor-magic-pie/56907-need-access-to-wiring-of-luna-full-twist-throttle)
If you don't see bad wiring or connections and your are sure the sensor is to blame, the hall sensor hook-ups are as follows...
(https://i.imgur.com/FxWvw5r.jpg)
For a complete look at the Hall Sensor Throttle... check out my thread HERE... (https://electricbike.com/forum/forum/kits/golden-motor-magic-pie/70584-guide-to-hall-sensor-throttle-operation-testing-and-modification)
Like Alan says, be sure to disconnect the throttle's LED assembly from your 72 volt power... ;) Hey, and while your in there, double check the amperage rating of the switch. And make sure you stay below it... (thinking of that contactor coil power draw)
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I unplugged the throttle and plugged the hall sensors in and found that the red wire was giving me 4.94v! So that means that the controller isn't screwed up! But that does mean that the throttle is dropping the power below the threshold for the controller. So now I am currently trying to disassemble the throttle body and it's pretty tough. I am trying to follow Gary (GM Canada)'s guide. I am currently trying to get a paint can opener and bend it to release the plastic latches to remove the hall sensor cable and the 72v cable that could be drawing the extra power from the controller as stated from Bikemad's post.
I just ordered the Honeywell SS49E sensor. I am assuming when I get this throttle apart I will find where the original hall sensor is and just replace the leads?
With the faulty throttle unplugged, you should now be able to check the operation of the motor Hall Sensors, as the voltages on the Yellow, Green and Blue wires should now alternate between ~0v and ~5V as the motor is rotated by hand instead of all staying at a steady 2.9V.
As the +5V supply is working correctly with the throttle unplugged, it would appear that the throttle Hall sensor (or its wiring) is partially shorted to ground and placing an excessively high load on the +5V supply, which is why the voltage drops so low with the throttle plugged in.
The battery supply to the throttle's LED battery gauge is not always fed from the battery supply lead on the throttle switch as shown on the previous diagram. Some of the throttles for the external controllers have a separate wire which is solely dedicated to supplying the Battery Gauge with battery voltage. If your throttle has this separate wire (it is Green on my throttle) then you only need to leave it disconnected at the connector end of the throttle cable instead of disconnecting the wire inside the throttle unit. ;)
The wires on an old type external controller twist throttle that I have are as follows:
(https://i.imgur.com/42Yzio2.png)
2 pin connector
Brown and Yellow wires to throttle switch
3 pin connector
Red: +5V feed to throttle Hall sensor
Black: Common Ground connection for Throttle Hall Sensor and LED Battery Gauge
White: Throttle signal output voltage (This usually varies between 0.8~1V with the throttle released and >3.25V at full throttle)
Separate Green wire
Battery Voltage supply for LED Battery Gauge (do not connect this if using a 48V throttle with a 72V battery)
Although the LED Battery Gauge shares a common ground connection with the Throttle Hall Sensor, it should not have any noticeable effect on the +5V supply even if it was connected directly to a 72V battery, as the higher voltage would only affect the operation of the Battery Gauge itself.
When you receive the new Hall sensor, you will need to cut off the heat shrink insulation and unsolder the wires from the old sensor and resolder them to the new one, making sure you don't mix them up in the process. The legs of the new sensor and the soldered connections must then be carefully insulated to ensure the soldered joints (or adjacent legs) cannot touch against one another. Heat shrink tubing is the best option, but insulation tape can be used instead if you don't have any suitable heat shrink tubing ;)
Alan
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Like Alan says, be sure to disconnect the throttle's LED assembly from your 72 volt power... ;) Hey, and while your in there, double check the amperage rating of the switch. And make sure you stay below it... (thinking of that contactor coil power draw)
I think that the switches are rated for 1A @ 250VAC (250 Watts) and the contactor coils usually consume 8-12 Watts of power, which should be less than 0.2A @ 72V, so the switch contacts should be fine.
Alan
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Hey there everyone.
I put the new hall sensor in and hooked it back up to the controller. Then I tested the hall sensor cables, the Red and Black were still 4.94v while the throttle is plugged in. But I then kept getting the 5 blinking LED lights on the controller. I went to put the throttle back together and then broke the newly soldered hall sensor... It is extremely fragile as a realized. I bought 2 hall sensors, so I will try again tomorrow.
So when the throttle was not fully assembled yet but the hall sensor was installed, I still got the lights. Does it matter? Should I reinstall the new sensor and try to get it to work. I think I might just buy a new throttle...
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The 4.94vdc on the motor hall sensor supply with the throttle connected is a good sign! :D But your next move is to re-test your 3 motor hall sensors to see if they are functioning properly as the 5 blinking lights do matter.... You don't need the throttle to check them. Since you have an extra hall sensor for your throttle it wouldn't hurt to try and replace it, the soldering practice on a hall sensor may come in handy. :-\
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Hey there everyone. Pretty frustrated. I tested the hall sensor wires without the throttle plugged in and got these values when I moved the motor.
Blue - 2.86vDC
Yellow - 2.86vDC
Green - 2.86vDC
Red - 4.95vDC
I soldered the hall sensor back into the throttle and tried to reassemble the throttle again. Some good news is that it appears that my throttle is not making the voltage go down anymore in the red hall sensor wire was 4.95vDC after I plugged in the throttle to the controller and hooked up the batteries. I don't think I reassembled the throttle back together correctly as there are no clear instructions as to how the spring goes back in the throttle assembly. I will have to take it apart again and re-do it. :( I also just ordered another throttle from Goldenmotor Canada, I hope it will be the same connector. I got some of these before for my brake wires: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B016NV1PVW/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B016NV1PVW/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1) Only my throttle is a 3 point connector currently. So we will hope that the new throttle has the same type.
Does anyone know if I would have to take the new throttle apart again to remove the LED power display so that it doesn't short the hall sensor again?
All that aside I still get 5 Blinking lights when I plug in the throttle... hence why I am frustrated. I guess I have to keep playing with the software till it doesn't blink when the throttle is connected?
Ugh.
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I tested the hall sensor wires without the throttle plugged in and got these values when I moved the motor.
Blue - 2.86vDC
Yellow - 2.86vDC
Green - 2.86vDC
Red - 4.95vDC
This might sound like a stupid question, but did you have the Hall Sensor connector plugged into the controller while you were checking the voltages and moving the motor? :-\
If the Hall Sensor connector was definitely connected, then those fixed 2.86V readings would seem to indicate that all three Hall sensors inside the Motor may have also been damaged in addition to the original Throttle Hall Sensor, and if they are no longer working, they will also need to be replaced. :(
The Hall Sensors in the motor are not the same type as the Throttle Sensors, and Honeywell SS41 (or equivalent) should be used for the motor.
I soldered the hall sensor back into the throttle and tried to reassemble the throttle again. Some good news is that it appears that my throttle is not making the voltage go down anymore in the red hall sensor wire was 4.95vDC after I plugged in the throttle to the controller and hooked up the batteries.
Did you check whether the throttle output varied between 0.8~1V with the throttle released and >3.25V at full throttle?
Does anyone know if I would have to take the new throttle apart again to remove the LED power display so that it doesn't short the hall sensor again?
The LED power display should not be able to short the Hall sensors, running a 48V LED power display on 72V should only cause problems with the power display circuit board components or the LEDs.
If the new throttle has a separate unterminated wire to power the LED Battery Gauge, then you simply insulate the end of the wire and leave it disconnected:
(https://i.imgur.com/42Yzio2.png)
All that aside I still get 5 Blinking lights when I plug in the throttle... hence why I am frustrated. I guess I have to keep playing with the software till it doesn't blink when the throttle is connected?
You "still get the 5 Blinking lights" because the Hall Sensor input from the Motor is still abnormal (or the Hall sensor connector is disconnected), and you will continue to see the 5 blinks until the problem with the Motor's Hall Sensors has been rectified. Changing the software settings will not affect this particular fault code.
As the Hall Sensors were obviously all working correctly originally, something has subsequently killed all four Hall Sensors (Three in the motor and one in the throttle unit):
I hooked everything up yesterday and it worked!... for 3 seconds. Now every time I turn on the switch on the throttle grip the contactor turns on but the motor doesn't turn over at all.
Apart from a common ground connection, the only other thing the Four Hall Sensors have in common is the +5V feed. So I am guessing that the +5v supply has somehow been subjected to full battery voltage, which would explain the death of the Hall Sensors. Although, I am surprised that the 5V regulator inside the controller has survived the ordeal, perhaps it has some form of diode protection on its output for this very purpose. :-\
I suspect that either your throttle was subsequently wired up slightly differently (supplying battery voltage to the Throttle signal wire instead of the battery gauge wire) or exposed wires/connections have been allowed to touch against each other causing a short circuit between a battery voltage (Brown and Yellow switch wires?) and the +5V wire.
If the throttle has never been connected incorrectly, then I suggest you carefully check inside the throttle unit to see if there are any signs of damaged or uninsulated wires that could have touched against each other,
Make sure that your new throttle is definitely wired up to the controller correctly, as I'm sure you won't want to experience all these problems again.
Alan
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As far as the throttle is concerned... why go with something with unusable LEDS? How about something capable of showing your actual battery voltage, with a nice key switch? ;)
(http://www.electricscooterparts.com/images/throttles/THR-099R-lg.jpg)
http://www.electricscooterparts.com/throttles-72-volt.html (http://www.electricscooterparts.com/throttles-72-volt.html)
Or if you prefer, just a regular switch, or full length twist throttle, ETC... Lots of different types out there. (of course it has to fit the handlebars... ::))
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Hi Tommycat,
I should have specified that I was turning the motor and weren't fixed to those values. I got values from 0-2.86ish... when I turned the motor for the Blue Yellow and Green cables.
I am going to wait and see if this new throttle makes a difference, if not, I do like that one from the Electric Scooter parts website. Since I screwed up reassembling the old throttle I didn't get to see if the throttle output varied between 0.8~1V with the throttle released and >3.25V at full throttle. So I will hopefully be able to do that when I get the new throttle. When I test the new throttle, would I just put my voltmeter into the plug as I did with the hall sensors like before to see the voltage of the throttle?
You "still get the 5 Blinking lights" because the Hall Sensor input from the Motor is still abnormal (or the Hall sensor connector is disconnected), and you will continue to see the 5 blinks until the problem with the Motor's Hall Sensors has been rectified. Changing the software settings will not affect this particular fault code.
As the Hall Sensors were obviously all working correctly originally, something has subsequently killed all four Hall Sensors (Three in the motor and one in the throttle unit):
Apart from a common ground connection, the only other thing the Four Hall Sensors have in common is the +5V feed. So I am guessing that the +5v supply has somehow been subjected to full battery voltage, which would explain the death of the Hall Sensors. Although, I am surprised that the 5V regulator inside the controller has survived the ordeal, perhaps it has some form of diode protection on its output for this very purpose. :-\
I did a visual inspection of the throttle when I took it apart and found a slightly burned white wire which could have happened before I opened it. However, it also could have been when I unsoldered it from the original hall sensor as I am unsure about this there is hope. After explaining that it was a range of 0-2.86v would that still mean that the hall sensors are dead? Do you think the hall sensors could still be screwed up even after I resoldered the throttle? I am really hoping it is just the throttle that is the issue.
If the throttle has never been connected incorrectly, then I suggest you carefully check inside the throttle unit to see if there are any signs of damaged or uninsulated wires that could have touched against each other,
I triple checked to see if it was all hooked up correctly the first time when I turned it on, the contactor turned on and then it turned over for a sec as I said. I am really hoping it was something dumb that I didn't do.
Coming up: Hook up the new throttle, test all voltages, see if there is the hall sensor LED blinks, (as they only appear now when I hook up the throttle.).
If there is still a problem buy the electric scooter parts throttle. Hook it up.
If working, look for chargers that charge a 10s Lithium ion pack and hook it up to an Anderson connectors (as that is what I have on my plugs).
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I got values from 0-2.86ish... when I turned the motor for the Blue Yellow and Green cables.
I presume you mean the Blue, Yellow and Green Hall Sensor Wires (not the Blue, Yellow and Green thick Phase cables) but were these readings taken with the throttle plugged in or unplugged?
When I test the new throttle, would I just put my voltmeter into the plug as I did with the hall sensors like before to see the voltage of the throttle?
Yes, measure the voltage between the Throttle Signal wire and the Black ground wire.
After explaining that it was a range of 0-2.86v would that still mean that the hall sensors are dead? Do you think the hall sensors could still be screwed up even after I resoldered the throttle? I am really hoping it is just the throttle that is the issue.
If they are all switching high and low they are probably OK, but I'm puzzled as to why they are not switching higher than 2.86V.
Perhaps this is just a quirk of the VEC-200 controller. :-\
Hook up the new throttle, test all voltages, see if there is the hall sensor LED blinks, (as they only appear now when I hook up the throttle.).
It is not a "Hall Sensor" LED, it is there to give visual feedback from the controller for a variety of possible errors:
(https://i.imgur.com/d3PgAd2.png)
If you are still getting just 5 blinks (but only when the throttle is connected) you should re-check the voltage going to the +5V Red Hall Sensor wire on both the Throttle and the Motor to see if it either has dropped significantly from the previous 4.95V.
However, if you were getting 12 blinks (but only when the throttle was connected) it would make a lot more sense. ;)
Also, if you don't have chargers for your battery packs, what is the battery voltage reading when connected to the controller?
Alan
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Hey Bikemad,
I presume you mean the Blue, Yellow and Green Hall Sensor Wires (not the Blue, Yellow and Green thick Phase cables) but were these readings taken with the throttle plugged in or unplugged?
Yes, the hall sensor wires with the white plug coming from the controller into the black cable into the motor.
If they are all switching high and low they are probably OK, but I'm puzzled as to why they are not switching higher than 2.86V.
Perhaps this is just a quirk of the VEC-200 controller. :-\
Maybe they might be around 3vDC but from what I see I couldn't keep the motor turned that way to get that value. I think I might have seen 2.95vDC at some point?
It is not a "Hall Sensor" LED, it is there to give visual feedback from the controller for a variety of possible errors:
Right. I didn't know the proper word to say, sorry about that. :D
If you are still getting just 5 blinks (but only when the throttle is connected) you should re-check the voltage going to the +5V Red Hall Sensor wire on both the Throttle and the Motor to see if it either has dropped significantly from the previous 4.95V.
However, if you were getting 12 blinks (but only when the throttle was connected) it would make a lot more sense. ;)
I will check the voltage tonight. 12 blinks would make more sense for the throttle error. I get the new throttle tomorrow so I will definitely check the voltage then as well.
Also, if you don't have chargers for your battery packs, what is the battery voltage reading when connected to the controller?
I should have specified earlier I charged the 18650s with an individual cell charger. Right now the voltage going into the controller last week was 79.9vDC. I have been researching but will continue to research. Reddit recommend https://www.amazon.com/Schumacher-SE-1010-2-Manual-Battery-Charger/dp/B0002YR83Q (https://www.amazon.com/Schumacher-SE-1010-2-Manual-Battery-Charger/dp/B0002YR83Q)
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Reddit recommend https://www.amazon.com/Schumacher-SE-1010-2-Manual-Battery-Charger/dp/B0002YR83Q (https://www.amazon.com/Schumacher-SE-1010-2-Manual-Battery-Charger/dp/B0002YR83Q)
That 12V automobile charger is no good for a 36V lithium battery, you'll need one (or two) like this 36V 5A lithium charger (https://www.amazon.com/WAOUKS-Charger-Lithium-Auto-Stop-Aluminum/dp/B075RZVS3L).
You can either connect both packs in parallel for charging with a single 36V charger as shown here:
(https://i.imgur.com/n7NhAPA.png)
Or use a separate charger for each pack.
Charging time will probably be 4~5 hours on a single 5A charger, and approx 2.5 hours with a pair of 5 Amp chargers.
If your batteries do not have any form of BMS, I would suggest using four cheap battery monitors (https://www.amazon.com/Readytosky-Battery-Monitor-Voltage-Indicator/dp/B01FHIMU0M) (along with a 10A diode in series with the charger positive output wire to drop the voltage slightly to help reduce the likelihood of overcharging the weaker cells.
I presume you are using 3500mA 18650 cells, but what make of cell are you using and what is the maximum continuous current that they (or their BMS) are capable of delivering?
Alan
EDIT: Series/Parallel connector diagram added.
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Bought another throttle and it worked!!!! Hooray!
Now, I don’t know if I should hook the contractor back up? If I do, do you think it will short the throttle again?!
Thanks everyone for all your help!! You guys rock!
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It's good to hear that it is now working again. :D
The Brown and Yellow switch wires should be completely separate from the throttle Hall sensor, so it should not be able to "short the throttle".
But if you're really concerned about killing another throttle control, you could use a separate key switch (instead of the throttle switch) to energise the contactor. ;)
Alan
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Here's my Instagram video of it starting.
https://www.instagram.com/p/Bqnaow0no4Q/?utm_source=ig_web_button_share_sheet (https://www.instagram.com/p/Bqnaow0no4Q/?utm_source=ig_web_button_share_sheet)
I did buy a keyed switch and will add the contactor. I am currently waiting for my 72v-12v converter so I can start building the preferals into the bike, like lights.
Where does the brake light lead come from when I hit the brakes? Does the controller plug need to be spliced? I am totally lost on how to add that.
Thanks again everyone, so excited!
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Glad to see your making progress in the forward direction! :D
If your going with a contactor, perhaps this is a good time to bring up a pre-charge resistor and spike suppression diodes. Seems like reasonable precautions withsuch a powerful system. Read this and see what you think...
http://zeva.com.au/Tech/ContactorJewelry/ (http://zeva.com.au/Tech/ContactorJewelry/)
Just thought I'd bring it up while your building. Your system will work with-out them, but like the article says... they will increase the longevity and add a level of protection for components.
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Hey everyone,
I hooked everything up today with a turnkey elock instead of the throttle elock. I think my contactor is broken, because nothing happened when I turned the key. No click on the contactor like last time and the motor didn't turn over. I tested the voltage to the contactor and got around 79v. I wired a switch that is a closed loop, to make sure it wasn't the turnkey and still nothing. Does anyone know if I should buy another contactor and what the specs of it are? When I bought the kit, it wasn't very specific that I see on my receipt. Would I be able to exchange that even though I bought it in August?
Another question I have is, I am wiring up a 72v to 12v step-down converter. Would I just put that on the cable after contactor that goes into the controller? If so, how would I wire it up? The pictures are attached.
Thanks again for your help!
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If you can measure 79V across the two small contactor terminals (thick Black and thin Red wires) and the contactor does not click, then the contactor is likely to be faulty.
Check with your supplier regarding the warranty on this item.
Also, the exposed terminal of the thick black wire on the contactor appears to be very close to the main positive contact. If these were to touch each other, it would effectively cause a direct short across the battery supply wires when the contactor switches. :o
Regarding the step down DC-DC converter, connect both the thin and thick Red wires to the battery + on the controller and connect the thin black wire to the battery - on the controller.
The thick Black output wire will be the common ground connection for your 12V system, while the thick Yellow wire will be the supply for your 12V system.
Alan
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Thanks BikeMad!
I will be hooking that up after I figure out where and what all the components are going to be. In the meantime, here is my build from yesterday. I got to ride it! Despite not having any brakes or a seat. Haha.
Happy new year!
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Hey everyone, what has everyone else made for a graphic user interface for speed, voltage, and other stats while riding?
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Hey everyone, trying to figure some nitty gitty stuff as the project approaches completion.
So, I think when I was testing my initial build with my contactor I might have had the wires in the wrong order. Now I am putting it together, hopefully for the second to last time, I am concerned about the contactor shorting out the system like last time. How can I separate the positive and negative terminals of the contactor shown below? (The first pic with the orange object) Also, do you think I should buy rubber grommets to separate the contactor from the frame?
I also attached an overall image of the bike. Do you guys recommend trimming the hall sensor cables? How would you attach the cables to the frame?
I don't really have access to anyone who can build a custom cover for all my components, so I cut out the old gas tank and am trying my best to let it fit over the batteries. I want to make all the cables as clean as possible as some of them will be exposed.
I also need to custom build a seat.
Thanks for your help!
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The cables can be secured to the frame using black zip ties or even black insulation tape, but you need to make sure that the battery connections on the contactor are safely insulated.
I recommend using rubber/plastic boots to completely enclose the exposed metal terminals as shown below:
(https://i.imgur.com/9iDui5D.png)
I would also rotate the lower terminal and place the locking washer between the terminal and the contactor so that it is spaced even further away from the frame, but don't position it too close to the contactor's ground connection, or that could result in a short circuit too. :o
The contactor should not need to be mounted on rubber grommets as the mounting bracket should already be electrically isolated, and very little vibration (if any) will be produced by the electric motor.
Regarding the seat, good results can be achieved by constructing the basic shape from cardboard and then apply layers of fibreglass over the top to achieve the required strength.
After some body filler and a lot of sanding you end up with a surface that can then be painted to match the tank and side panels etc.
Here are the before and after pictures of my brother's first moped taken back in 1980:
(https://i.imgur.com/NROsEIo.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/xouV7Cr.png)
The above image was scanned from some old slides which were developed nearly 39 years ago, hence the strange colours.
The slide showing a close up of the mural on the top of the petrol tank seems to have been relatively unaffected:
(https://i.imgur.com/lZlIV63.png)
Exposed groups of cables can be bound together using black PVC loom tape, which is similar to black PVC insulation tape but without the adhesive backing.
Alan
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Those look awesome!
I will be putting the terminal boots when I get them in a few days. I will also get a few locking washers for a few things.
I really didn't want to do a fiberglass body for the seat. I was thinking about just making a longer seat out of pleather. I also just got the loom tape yesterday and started wrapping some wires that I knew where they would go. That might be a last resort if I can't get the seat to look the way I want.
I just realized that step-down converter is only rated to 72v. When I am fully charged I'll be running around 80v. Will that blow the converter?
Here's a link to the step-down converter. https://www.ebay.com/itm/Pro-Chaser-DC-DC-48V-60V-72V-Converter-Regulator-Step-Down-to-12V-240W-20A-/223130887152?hash=item33f3a323f0 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/Pro-Chaser-DC-DC-48V-60V-72V-Converter-Regulator-Step-Down-to-12V-240W-20A-/223130887152?hash=item33f3a323f0)
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I just realized that step-down converter is only rated to 72v. When I am fully charged I'll be running around 80v. Will that blow the converter?
The voltages stated on the converter are usually nominal voltages, not fully charged voltage. A 72V lead acid pack would typically be charged to ~87V, which should quickly drop to ~83V when the charger is switched off. The converter should work fine with a 72V lithium pack.
Alan
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You were right! It worked with the 72v step-down! Check out what came alive last night!
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So, I know this is weird, I was hoping to have 2-36v batteries running in series for 72v for space. The motor draws 94A max continuous. If I have a BMS on each of the batteries, would I need that BMS to have 100a protection or 50a protection? Does each battery pull the amps equally or are they both pulling 100amps?
I was looking at these BMS to see if I could use them, they are rather pricey.
http://www.batterysupports.com/36v-37v-42v-10s-100a-10x-36v-lithium-ion-lipolymer-battery-bms-p-390.html
Would it be easier to just build a 72v battery? (20s with 100a protection). I wanted it to be 2-36v 15a in series to build the batteries and have a few of them I could swap in and out?
Does that make sense?
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If two packs are connected in series, each pack supplies full current but only half of the total voltage, but if two packs are connected in parallel, each pack supplies full voltage but only half of the total current.
So in your case, each BMS must be able to supply >94A continuously.
A single 72V battery might be the simplest option, but you would also need a 72V charger (or 2 x 36V chargers with their outputs wired in series) with an accurately regulated 84V maximum output (20 cells @ 4.2V = 84V)
As it is not recommended to swap half a battery pack at a time, it should not really matter whether your spare packs are 2 x 36v or 1 x 72V.
Your 2 x 36V packs should always be charged and discharged evenly as a matched pair, so they are basically being treated as a single pack anyway. ;)
Alan
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Yeah, that's what I figured... not what I wanted to hear. But what I thought. I have to figure out how to wire them together in the space I have.
If I have two banks together, how would I put them together while keeping them stacked on top of each other? 2 stacks of 10s6p in series?
Thanks again Alan!
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If I have two banks together, how would I put them together while keeping them stacked on top of each other? 2 stacks of 10s6p in series?
You might want to try this battery shape configurator (https://e4bike.ru/page/battery-shape-configurator?lang=en) to find the best shape to suit your battery space.
If you have room for a single 20S6P pack like this:
(https://i.imgur.com/lOO7oLH.png)
it could be mounted flat on its side for a lower centre of gravity, or you could make two packs and stack one on top the other for double the range. ;)
I would suggest placing a suitable piece of thick card between the two packs before taping them together using either Duct tape or reinforced filament tape.
Don't forget to allow additional room for your BMS unit. ::)
Alan
EDIT: Battery diagram added
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Hey everyone, finishing up my final battery configuration. I figured out I needed higher thickness for nickel strips. I got .3mm thick by 8mm wide to handle the higher 13.9amps that each cell can use.
I also got a 20s7p 72v -100amp BMS. Below is what I am thinking of doing for my moped. I already have to have the specific size for the battery compartment. So I have to create the two 10s packs in series for 20s configuration. I have it separated by a 1/8inch foam sheet and then the BMS will be on top of it. My questions are:
- What gauge wire should go between the positive and negative from one cell to the other to complete the other? It's about 7inches or 200mm from the front and back? The other wire that goes to the controller is only 10 gauge that came with the Golden motor. Would I be ok with 10 Gauge wire?
- Will I be ok with the eva foam I bought to go around the pack to separate the two 10s packs from touching? Would you wrap each of them and then solder the BMS in?
Below is my image for what I'm thinking. The other image is my 30Q's together
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Ok! The battery is done! However...
I recycled the series connection from my old battery connection wires when I went to a single 72v battery. I didn't realize that the plug posts were switched. I plugged it into my system and then turned on the bike. A small spark and all the fuses blew. I tested my battery, and I replaced the 12v system fuse. I switched the plugs to be correct and now I have no movement from the motor. But the battery and the 12v systems are working now. I assume if I replace the "100 amp- 32v MIDI" fuse, everything will work again?
Image of the fuse. https://imgur.com/gallery/kdMJXm3 (https://imgur.com/gallery/kdMJXm3)
Do you think that my controller was saved by the fuse? The 12v system was, (10amp fuse). I feel like if the 12v system was the controller was? What happens when you reverse the polls?
Thanks, everyone!
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Try some 32A fuse wire in place of the blown fuse to temporarily test if the controller is OK, but don't apply too much throttle or you could blow the fuse wire. :o
If the motor then turns, you will hopefully be OK with just a replacement 100A fuse.
(https://i.imgur.com/FnmD5lE.png)
Alan
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Thanks Bikemad!
I replaced the 100amp fuse and it turned over for a second then shuts off. The lights still work?
The pack is registering with the voltmeter @ 66.4v. So that’s 3.32v per cell. Is the pack too low? My 72v charger didn’t get here yet so I have to wait to charge. Could I test the Bms somehow? Or did I fry my controller?
Thanks!
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If your pack is only measuring 66.4V without any load on it, the pack is basically fully discharged, and the voltage will quickly drop even lower when you apply a load to it.
Here are the controller's default voltage settings for a 72V battery:
(https://i.imgur.com/LSXDoty.png)
Current reducing would start at 66V and the controller would cut the power completely at 63V.
If it is not the the controller itself that is cutting out, then it is likely that the BMS is cutting the power to prevent damage to the low cells, because the lowest group of paralleled cells has reached their safe minimum voltage.
Here is an amended 7S chart which now shows the approximate battery state of charge for a lithium 20S battery pack:
(https://i.imgur.com/RSEZZub.png)
(I multiplied the original 7S figures by 20/7 to obtain the 20S figures shown above.)
It might be worth setting your controller's Low voltage protection value (V) to 67V, and the Low voltage triggering current reducing (V) to 70V as I suspect the default values are more suited to lead acid batteries than lithium.
I am hopeful that the controller will start working correctly again once the battery has been recharged.
(https://i.imgur.com/FnmD5lE.png)
Alan
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Thanks everyone for your help!
I just thought you would like to see it. It's not finished by any means but I thought you would like it.
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Hey everyone, I'm about finished. I added a new tank/cover for my components and added turn signals. The image is attached.
I had a question about wiring up brake lights.
Could I use the 3V power coming from the brake switches on the Goldenmotor brake cables that go to the controller? Is this possible? I can hook up a normally open relay to turn it on? I tried this before and got 3 blinking lights from the controller?
What have others done to trigger a brake light?
Thanks!
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You cannot use the low level "3V" brake signal wire to power your brake lights, but it should be possible to wire a 12V relay along with a couple of diodes into the Blue wire to allow the 12V from your DC/DC converter to power the brake light bulb through the relay:
(https://i.imgur.com/ZR8sOgQ.png)
If you are using the original light fitting with a 12V 21W/5W stop/tail light bulb (or a lower wattage LED equivalent) it might be better to rewire the brake light switches so that they switch the 12V supply from your DC/DC converter directly to the brake light bulb and the Brake (High Level) wire on the controller:
(https://i.imgur.com/oNSAt4f.png)
In this configuration, the low level brake wires are no longer used and should be left disconnected as shown.
With most motorbike conversions where the 12V lighting system is retained, the original foot and hand brake switches would be utilised by simply connecting the High Level brake signal wire to the switched side of the brake switches as per the above diagram.
Alan
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Wow! Thanks, Alan!
I'm going to go with the first option since I already have the relay. I will just need to change the wiring. Would this diode work for this application?
https://ebay.us/kKlvB1 (https://ebay.us/kKlvB1)
Thanks again!
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3A is probably overkill but they should work fine.
I would have used a couple of 1N4002 (1A 100V) diodes as the highest load would be the 150~200 mA (0.1~0.2A) passing through the relay windings.
Alan
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Gotcha, I ordered one! I'll update you when I install it.
Thanks Alan!
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I hope you ordered more than just "one", as you need two! ;D
Alan
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Yup I bought 10 of them. This is my first experience with diodes that don't emit light haha. Anyway, since a diode prevents the electrons from traveling in a certain direction, would you wire up the diodes in the way you posted?
I have looked at a few websites for help on diodes and I know a lot more about direction, but even when I use the multimeter, I'm not sure which side of the brake cable I add the diode to since I have already spliced both cables to go to the relay before. Am I wiring it up for a forward bias or a reverse bias? A forward Bias right?
I will post pics when I have it wired up.
Thanks for your help with this!
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Yup I bought 10 of them. This is my first experience with diodes that don't emit light haha. Anyway, since a diode prevents the electrons from traveling in a certain direction, would you wire up the diodes in the way you posted?
Yes, they should definitely be orientated exactly as shown in the following diagram:
(https://i.imgur.com/CbB5hYx.png)
Click on diagram to enlarge it.
Diode A allows the brake signal voltage to travel to ground via either of the brake switches when either switch contacts are closed (brakes applied), but also prevents the 12V passing through the relay windings from making its way up the brake signal wire and back into the controller when the brake switch contacts are both open (brakes not applied).
I'm not sure which side of the brake cable I add the diode to since I have already spliced both cables to go to the relay before. Am I wiring it up for a forward bias or a reverse bias? A forward Bias right?
The Black and Blue brake switch wires can be connected either way around as the mechanical brake switches are not polarity sensitive and will allow current flow in either direction. Just make sure that diode A connects to the brake signal wire from the controller and not the Black ground wire and it must be orientated as shown. ;)
Diode B allows current to flow through the relay windings to ground (activating the relay) when either of the brake switches are closed, but its main purpose is to prevent the regen from permanently engaging in the unlikely event of the DC/DC converter suddenly failing, as it will prevent a dead DC/DC converter from effectively grounding out the brake signal wire when the output of the DC/DC converter is at 0V instead of 12V. :o
Both diodes must allow forward bias and prevent reverse bias, as no current should be allowed to flow through either diode in the reverse direction.
Hopefully this has clarified the intended purpose of the two diodes.
(http://www.arhservices.co.uk/GoldenMotor/emoticons/fingerscrossed.GIF)
Alan
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Alan thank you! It works beautifully.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1mxZdOxm9xkjq5LPmSDoJ_Ws3WR7QaDam/view?usp=sharing
I 3d printed a relay and flasher holder next to the DC to DC converter.
Thanks again for all of your help!