GoldenMotor.com Forum
General Category => Reviews => Topic started by: GM Brazil on December 28, 2009, 01:28:03 AM
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Hello!
I did the payment using paypal. Just waiting for the first of many ;). As soon as I receive it I'll post a review. I will try to include every step, even unboxing. Now I need to order the watt meter to have more details about the performance.
I'm a Aerospace Engineer, so I'll try to go deep on the analysis :D
Happy new year magic people!
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Happy magic new year to you too, GM Brazil! Looking forward to your review.
My advice:
You may need to secure -or make-- a 3.7mm spoke wrench to 'tune' your wheel. Mine just showed up ~3/8" off-center :P
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Yes... I hope they send it already correctly centered. But I was checking my brother's in law bike and the bike itself is "off center"... I'm on vacation and I could not check my own. GM could use the 16" Pie motor and use that to bikes, adding the holes for the spokes. This could make it easier to correct the centering as it is wider that the original pie.
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Dear Harvey,
The magic Pie MUST be off centered in order for you to enjoy both the sprocket and disc brake in a 135mm width.
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Happy magic new year to you too, GM Brazil! Looking forward to your review.
My advice:
You may need to secure -or make-- a 3.7mm spoke wrench to 'tune' your wheel. Mine just showed up ~3/8" off-center :P
This is less than 1cm in metric. Which can bring the tire close to the rear forks. Spreading a steel frame by 3/16" each side and some washers to equal 3/8" on the inside to the close side of the drop outs should centre the wheel fine.
Ive read that some Ebikers have spread steel frame drop outs by a much larger degree than 3/8". Even though a steel frame can be a little heavier its reported to be a much smoother ride.
Aluminium may be able to be spread a little but its not advised.
You could probably do this on a steel frame with a piece of 4"X2" wood lever between the motor case and rear forks to spread the dropout enough to slip the washers in between the close side and its drop out.
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I put this measures on a GM picture for another post. As you can check we only need to move the rim 6,25mm to both sides be equal.
28,5+6,25=41-6,25
On the review of the pie on Koga-Miyiata (http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?topic=1527.0) he was able to move the rim something like 5mm, and 1,25 mm off center is ok to me! In his case the off center was because of the 9 speed sprocket, maybe on my bike it appears centered...
Thanks for the advices!
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You may need to secure -or make-- a 3.7mm spoke wrench to 'tune' your wheel. Mine just showed up ~3/8" off-center :P
Sorry for any confusion ..I needed to modify a spoke wrench to a 3.7mm opening in order to 'dish' my MP wheel because the rim is (was) ~3/8" off-center. Managed to get it within ~1/8" before nipples began stripping.
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Dear Harvey,
The magic Pie MUST be off centered in order for you to enjoy both the sprocket and disc brake in a 135mm width.
Thanks Yau,
The spacing on the hub is perfect - just what I expected. However, when the wheel is placed in a truing stand, I found that the rim was ~3/8" (9.5mm) off-center. Please have your QC team look into this, the tire SHOULD contact the road at the virtual center of the frame's dropouts.
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If you are stripping out the nipples then I would suspect that the nipples are topping out on the spoke threading.
Yau, Is the factory using 2mm shorter spokes on the drive side? This helps facilitate dish on rear wheels which keeps the rim centered while the hub is offset.
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It is coming!
"07 Jan 2010 06:26:45 Pudong International Airport Shipment Received At Transit Point. "
Edit, new status:
"07 Jan 2010 19:41:44 Pudong International Airport Shipment In Transit."
Edit, new status:
"09 Jan 2010 18:15:35 Liege Euro Hub Shipment In Transit. "
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The shipment is already at Brazil! The MP may come today or tomorrow! Or take more, you never know!
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The pie has landed!
I'll post more details later. For now:
Everything looks of a very good quality, just small problems:
The rear light have a crack.
The disk brakes and activators, ordered, they did not come.
And the rim is not correctly centered.
But is super!! I'll bring the rim and bike to change some components on the bike shop and post the photos later!
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i will be waiting for the pics, what bike are you going to use?
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If you ordered something and it did not come, then it is a serious problem. please e-mail zhourenli@goldenmotor.com his name is TOM and he'll find out wad went wrong.
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Hello Yao!
Yes, in fact a pair of complete disk brake sets (disk and actuator) did not came, the package was intact (I'll talk about the package later on the review) and the "bubble plastic" does not had any opening, so was not an transportation problem, just was not in the package.
Anyway, I've talked to Echo, and there is no problem with this, you can send me it later on the wholesale order to come. For now I'm very happy with the quality, the problems I find, I'll detail tomorrow on the review. Just use it for something like 5km, without all the functions enabled.
This is the photo album for this test kit: http://picasaweb.google.com.br/brunofporto/MagicPieTestKit?authkey=Gv1sRgCODfiIXslNPCqwE&feat=directlink
YAO, please, do not use this photos yet, wait me to complete the small visual details, and then I'll send you personally a good photo without the masking tape holding the wires :D This tape is temporary just to test the positioning, etc.
ps.: People, tomorrow (now is almost 5am and I need to sleep :'( ) I'll post the first part of the review: First impressions.
Later I'll do more tests, open the battery pack, test it with the watt meter, etc etc.
For now I can just say that:
Quality - Very good first impression, everything looks good. I have a good feeling about bad plastics and I felt that all the components are of very good quality material.
Installation - After the hardware, the electric part takes 3 minutes, REALLY. PLUG &PLAY, really nice!
Package - I was waiting for something more clean and professional, but was very well protect and I asked to put even the battery on the same box.
Manual - Very good quality, but lack important details and have wrong information about features (like anti-theft systems we all know from the other post)
Fun - A LOT OF FUN and it was for just 5km...
More to come. Tomorrow, sorry!!!
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you gotta get that rack 002, it would fit much nicer
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For sure!!! I was hoping that this was my model.
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The photos are in the picasa album linked before
The package came protected with bubble wrap, which did not appear to tears or the like. The cardboard packaging has a low mark of an impact.
The lanterns were loose in the box, the headlight should be apparent in a box, I did not find a box to the taillight. The latter came cracked, but nothing to stop working.
The other components were very well protected, nothing came damaged in any way.
I expected a more professional package with Styrofoam corners where their cavities were placed on the smaller components, for example. Here is all the content inside the box after being removed.
http://picasaweb.google.com.br/lh/photo/23ghcbVlMgFu_BmJRgsIWg?authkey=Gv1sRgCODfiIXslNPCqwE&feat=directlink
Came:
• Magic Pie mounted on the wheel with nuts and washers.
• Accelerators type twist and thumb
• Key Cruise-control with button to turn off the PAS
• PAS
• Cables Pie
• Harness the battery (separate from the cable pie could have come with some type of standard connector.
• Battery LiMn 48v12Ah with the keys and bi-volt charger Manual 3A
• Rack and former board fixing battery
• Package with extra connectors
What was missing:
• Screws for fixing the plate in the rack
• Cable Lantern front
• Set of disc brakes
• Extra connector, red, to match the color pattern of Pie
• The keys of the CC were not with the connectors.
The engine has good looks and quality, all the screws come with washers. The rim is double-walled, with appearance of great quality and resistance. The spokes are very robust and stood firm. The rim came with the sealing tape inside!
I tested the fit of the wheel quickly before going to the workshop and it was not centered, as we have seen, there was no room for the internal washers. My bike mechanic solved it easily with just two precise strokes with a rubber hammer at the bike aft triangle. The rim still not completely centered, but was enough. I'll NEED THE DISK BRAKES, they are like 4x more expensive here. So, for now I'll put one on the motor and leave the v-brake in front.
The other components of the kit are of great finish, I feel that the plastics are of good quality and the keys of the CC did not come with the plug fitted. Lanterns looks fragile, came back and checked the lamp to 36V but it worked well with the 48v battery. The lamp appears to have eight points, but only four light indeed. One of the lights came without the cable, none of them had indication of polarity. The connectors are very easy to assemble, even without special tools. I used the red key on and off independently headlights front and rear.
The rack, which was not dented or bent, came apart and without the screws to secure the battery plate on my table and do not possess the holes for this type of rack. The backing plate and slide the locking bolt very superficially, the shoulder should be higher. There is a pin that I believe will serve to limit the travel of the battery, he did not touch him. I'll have to solve that too.There is a gap between the rail and the battery, it seems "loose" and together with the locking pin shy of the impression that bumps the battery will start from there.
The battery seems good quality, sturdy plastic and firm, pleasant to the touch. By shaking the pack to feel the loose in La, as it moved about 1cm forward and backward. I'll have to solve it.The battery came with 58v measured on a multimeter crap. It took about half an hour to recharge. It came with a sticker with important information for care. All I showed was very impressed with the appearance quality of each piece.
The charger has the appearance of great quality and also good finish. The internal fan makes some noise, nothing more, this sound is sense of security. The power supply came with an unknown pattern (Chinese?), But the connector on the device is the same type of sources of PC so it was easy to find a replacement. It can operate on 110v or 220v via a switch, has two LEDs, an indication of on / off and another charge state, orange for charging and green for charged. The fan turns off when finished loading. It also has a key on / off switch and a fuse.
No instructions came on the charger for common sense I connect the cable on the battery only when it is turned off and unplugged from the bike and then switch on the charger, also turning it off before unplugging the cable.
The installation of the mechanical part was extremely simple. It took about two and a half and much to adapt to the rack. I really believe that the 002 is much better in that sense. It was necessary to drill the frame and use a rivet with thread, the appearance is of an original piece.After all the control components, engine, speed, etc.. are also installed the mechanic said:
"The part of mechanics ready ta, end there the electric"
I connected the blue on blue, green on green, black on black, etc, turned on the battery and ready, was working.
In fact, before I had to solder the battery cable with the power of pie. Connectors Cruise-control, lights etc.. I did quickly and was very simple. But I have knowledge of electrical and a multimeter to test, switches, polarity, etc.. As well as to mount connectors, other customers may have problems with this. But it was really quite simple, worked first.
This time the cables were still all a bit loose and tied them down to the table with tape, anyway, just to test. We did the check list, put on the street e. ..
Very cool! The feeling of acceleration is great, comfortable. It makes a noise that I at least think pleasant. Cycling is pulled in a very big difference and I had no problems or torn in the process in highly inclined, do not know how, but weight 110kg.
Today, I finished organizing the cables with zip-ties and got a very clean appearance. I had to hold the battery with rubber bands, as there is a gap between the battery and card, I walk by or cobblestone streets waving the battery is noisy rattling back there. I'll have to solve it.
Only scored the maximum speed 44 km / h, I am without my watt meter yet. Nor marked time use, recharge etc.. I'm trying to use as one would use on a daily basis at the beginning.Whenever I get chance to put the battery check, did not even score half battery.
I got home from the workshop with her last night. Today I used to go back there, then went to the market, I came home, went to work. At home and at work let the battery to recharge, but the work was hard, I let a lot of friends try it.
I also discovered that the pie has a buzzer, I thought it had not. I had forgotten to connect the control's cable o the pie and when I turned it on did beeps, and solved the problem without difficulty.
We use a few bolts of poor quality, without washers, and this has caused some of them got lost, tomorrow I'll buy better quality bolts and locking nuts to prevent loosening with vibration.
As for disc brakes, just not a problem because I will be making a new request soon, but if it were the case would have been pretty bad. It's quite annoying not receive the product they bought.
Edit: ps.: I'm felling very lazy so I used the google translate tool :D please tell me if you find anything unusual.
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44km/h is pritty good but... what can you continiously ride, like I can do 38,6 on average without peddling? ooh and what's your original language?
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Looks like its going to be a realy nice ride..... Nice bike.
I see you are having the same problems with the wheel being off centre and also missed the nuts and bolts to connect the rack and the battery plate.
I had that same problem. Of course easy to find some nuts and bolts, but the off-centre wheel should be altered in the pie fabrication proces. Thats a real no no
For the rest everything seems ok and looks like good quality.
I only find the main +/- wires coming from the hub a bit thin.
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For sure! I almost finished it today, with the disk brake only on the rear, organized cables, both lights working, valocimeter, etc. I only need to solve some minor details.
I'll bui some velcro, black, to put around the battery on the rack, the elastic does not hold it very well and it keeps making noise (betwin the battery and slide plate) when it shakes. This should solve the problem.
I opened the battery to check why the pack feels loose inside and it was 'cause the hot glue used to fix it was not "glued" probably shipment caused. I'll think how to fix it... I do not know if I'll use more hot glue or some epoxy (modeling stuff, "durepoxy" here, I do not know the word)
I also need to buy the lock nuts for the battery plate, the one I'm using keep falling every day :D
When I find the Velcro I'll shot the "official" photo :D
This weekend I'll do and endurance test inside my institute (it is bigger then the Vatican, they say), it is a very plane place, good for a test.
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Cant wait to find out more (wish I had all my parts ready) Wont be long now though.....
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Today I used the pie for 22km.
It is just great! Very quick to go to work, groceries, etc. I got some drizzle three times back to home. The throttle stops to respond like 4 times after using the regenerative braking, and comes back to work after a few seconds. Anyone knows why this could happens, maybe the regen-burn-problem solution kicking?
I noted that the torque response after these 22km feels weaker. I think that this is normal, it was not very much difference.
I also needed to start from stop on a hill and the controller cut off. I can not say the % of the hill, but was % enough to my weight. I was happy for it, it is dumb safe, after you learn it limits and when helps with the pedal, etc, it is very nice to ride.
After each time I used the bike, I carefully touched the motor and battery and they was always safe to touch, just warm. The temperature here is something like 28ºC these days.
After this ride it takes 2:30 hours to recharge using the 3A recharger, so I could say that I used about 7,5 Ah from the battery (more or less)?
One spoke seems loose, I did not find exactly which, but I hear it "squerquing" when I use the RegB.
Tomorrow I'll try to use all the battery. I hope my turnigy watt meter comes soon!
I've changed the old bad screws and nuts for nice stainless steel ones, and changed the fixation of the rack, I'll take some photos, wait a second.
Ok, I put some explanation at the photos, beguin with this one and go to the next ones!
http://picasaweb.google.com.br/brunofporto/MagicPieTestKit#5429738107723204898
YAO: This one is nice to use!! http://picasaweb.google.com.br/brunofporto/MagicPieTestKit#5429738237121372002
I'll take more photos outside, tomorrow!
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YAO: This one is nice to use!! http://picasaweb.google.com.br/brunofporto/MagicPieTestKit#5429738237121372002
I've attached your picture here as I'm not sure if Yao can access Picasa in China, but he can access attachments.
I've also had a really close look at this picture, but I still can't see the fixings for the rocket propulsion system!
(http://www.arhservices.co.uk/GoldenMotor/emoticons/3_small.GIF)
Alan
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ooh and what's your original language?
Kevin,
I would say his original language is Portuguese:
The shipment is already at Brazil!
Portuguese is the official language of Brazil, and is spoken by virtually all the population
I'm sure GM Brazil will correct me if I'm wrong.
Alan
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ooh, didn't know that I thought maybe he's dutch, but i'm clearly wrong.
nice bike btw
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Looking good.
Had a phonecall with the bikeshop that is going to do my new spokejob. They are still ayting for the rimm. Should hopefully be rady next week though.
Wish we had 28 degrees C in Holland wright now. Nasty and cold weather around 0 degrees C at the moment.
Jerry.
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Today I could not leave home >:( I needed to cleam up the mess of my house and for the rest of the day rained a lot. I hope tomorrw I habe a better weather!
Thsnaks Bikemad for annexing the photos here! As now I have a slide rack maybe I could put the rocket there, then I let you do the first ride ;)
But something like 50% of them exploded lol.
Jazzjerry
Had a phonecall with the bikeshop that is going to do my new spokejob. They are still ayting for the rimm. Should hopefully be rady next week though.
Wish we had 28 degrees C in Holland wright now. Nasty and cold weather around 0 degrees C at the moment.
I did not fixed the rim to be centered, my bike mechanics said that it was not a problem as I'm using a disk brake. It limited the size of the tire anyway, but I can not feel any difference in handling. Why are they taking so much time to do the rims for you?
About the weather, I prefer something between 18ºC to 24ºC as I feels really bad when it is more than 28º, a few days ago was 40ºC!! But for sure I would not like to have 0ºC :D The city I lived before here has 0º to 2º some times during the winter and was literally "eggs freezing" to me :)
Hardcore, Bikemad is right! :D My "mother" language is portuguese!
By the way, I discovered one of the magic tricks of the pie on one of the Hyena photos:
(https://i.imgur.com/4dmLnax.png)
On this photo you can see that there is some internal ribs at the pie cover plate, these ribs act as a compressor, "pumping" the air to the outer diameter of the motor, with flow back passing through the stator and cooling it and the controller, then goes back to the cover plate faces to cool down again! It is a very simple and smart solution, that evens increase the strength of the motor. You see better with this drawing, annexed.
It is a really nice product, works well and smoothly, easy to assemble and the so discussed "jet fan" pattern ends that it looks really nice on the bike! The only problem with the design is the well centering limitation, GM should found a solution for this!! Did not bother me but for the big mass of clients it should raise some problems. And also, for sure, a better professional looking package! As I said, it cames very well protected, but did not nooks like something of brand.
I'll put this on the MP feedback post.
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me:
Why are they taking so much time to do the rims for you?
L... They are still ayting for the rimm. ...
Ok! I found the answer, lol!
BTW, rained all day today again, bad day!
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I asked them if they could get a special brand of rim that is especially made for e-bikes.
The Brand is RIGIDA http://www.rigida.com/en/products/hybride-city/rims-5 (http://www.rigida.com/en/products/hybride-city/rims-5)
The 1st 3 at the top of the page in the ANDREA series are made for e-bike. They have their spoke holes suited for the shorter spokes going to a hub motor. Kinkfree and a tougher rim to cope with the stresses caused by electric propultion.
They had to be ordered from somewhere. Probably the factory. So I am waiting for them to arrive.
(http://www.rigida.com/en/image/mainlarge/?file=ANDRA30blackCSS2659_1.jpg)
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As now I have a slide rack maybe I could put the rocket there, then I let you do the first ride ;)
But something like 50% of them exploded lol.
As long as they don't explode, it looks like fun:
Rack mounted rocket (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ms4YDCEwxkE)
This one's a little bit faster (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9V6VpoED4A)
Alan
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I was going to link that 245km/h video :D But I forget it when writing the answer, lol.
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New photos!
The velcro solution = elegant and completly solved the noise problem
"oficial" better photo for the GM gallery :D
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Good Idear with the velcro.
I Should try and find some as well
JJ
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I used some auto adehsive velcro at the battery. I tried to put the velcro around the sliding plate but I do not know why it does not work, it is better to put all around the rack, then was just perfect, NO NOISE!
There is some video I edited for the bike :D
http://www.teslabike.com.br/TeslaTeaser_0001.wmv
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Today I did the range test!
The MP with me 110km, 28,5 kg bike (measured!!) and something like 2kg of stuff (photo camera, lock chain, etc). The test place is very plane and any hills where very light.
Most of the time I set the cruise control to something close to 30km/h, but the first 20 minutes I was riding at maximum throttle all time. I did not use the pedal until the BMS cut.
I did a total of 25,6 km with an average speed of 20,9 km/h and a maximum of 43,5 km/h. Total riding time 1:20 with 7 minutes of stop (my lunch! :D). This data is from the GPS. From the cateye (correctly configured) the maximum speed was 44,5 km/hand the distance 28,2 km (this distance includes my way back to home pedaling!).
I think the distance is pretty nice for 140kg of bike plus rider without any pedaling, and as I know the battery takes a small time using to really reach full capacity (is this true? I do not remember where I read that). Using the crap multimeter the battery first showed 51v!!! This voltage dropped as the battery cool down and got stable at 45,5V. Now I'll put the battery to charge and take note about the time to recharge (I'll turn the recharger on at the exact time I post this topic :D ).
One thing important is that the battery gauge lights at the throttle does only showed that the battery was at half of capacity!!! But when acelerating it shows only the empty led.... I think that I'll take the load measure as reference in the future, as even now with the battery cold the "half" led still light up!
As soon as the battery finish it's charge I tell you :D
ps.: The Velcro solution worked really nice!!! Not any noise, very very nice to ride the bike like this. Even with the "elastic hook" was not that smooth and sometimes the battery kicked with that!! This velcro should came with the rack kit as default!!!
ps2.:Total ride distance so far 117,8 km!!! This is almost 10 dollars in gasoline for my car here :D
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nice, do you have 36v or 48v
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I started to recharge at 14:45 and at 20:00 it finished.
I let it for more 30 minutes to balance the cells.
Hardcore, I have a 48v12Ah HM batterry, and now after recharging the multimeter shows 53,7v.
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Using the crap multimeter the battery first showed 51v!!! This voltage dropped as the battery cool down and got stable at 45,5V.
Bruno,
Your earlier readings appeared to be a bit on the low side for a 48V pack, unless your voltmeter is really as bad as you say!
Nominal voltage 3.8V Mean voltage during rated discharge after rated charge
End of charge voltage 4.20 ± 0.05V
These figures are what I would have expected:
48V pack = 13 x 3.8V = 49.4V (54.6V ± 0.65V fully charged)
Alan
P.S.
Your video is very good!
(http://www.arhservices.co.uk/GoldenMotor/emoticons/6_small.GIF)
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Hello Bikemad!
So it seems ok, fully charged it is 54V (with is inside the "54.6V ± 0.65V fully charged")
Only the discharged state that was 45,5 volts after the battery cooled down. Was something closer to 49v (51v and going down) the first time I checked it after the ride.
So: 45,5v / 13 cells = 3,5v each cell is this ok?
But what I did not like is that the "battery gauge" at the throttle was showing "half" battery when the BMS cut-off the battery...
ps.: Thanks! My cousing filmed but he do not know how to use the zoom :D It could be better :D
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So: 45,5v / 13 cells = 3,5v each cell is this ok?
But what I did not like is that the "battery gauge" at the throttle was showing "half" battery when the BMS cut-off the battery...
These packs can safely be discharge as low as 32.5V (2.5V/cell) without damaging the cells, but I expect the BMS cut-off is set at a higher voltage to extend the overall life of the battery.
I'm pretty sure the LED battery gauge was originally designed for use with lead acid batteries, which tend to have a larger and more pronounced voltage drop throughout their discharge, and this would be more obvious to the battery meter.
Alan
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So: 45,5v / 13 cells = 3,5v each cell is this ok?
But what I did not like is that the "battery gauge" at the throttle was showing "half" battery when the BMS cut-off the battery...
These packs can safely be discharge as low as 32.5V (2.5V/cell) without damaging the cells, but I expect the BMS cut-off is set at a higher voltage to extend the overall life of the battery.
I'm pretty sure the LED battery gauge was originally designed for use with lead acid batteries, which tend to have a larger and more pronounced voltage drop throughout their discharge, and this would be more obvious to the battery meter.
Alan
Nice to know that the BMS cut off earlier! There is someway to "tune" my battery gauge? I'll open the spare twist throttle and see if there is some way :D
I hope my watt meter shows up soon, it is taking too long to get here. Then I'll do an 1.5C resistive loading test and take notes each 5 minutes to draw the battery graphic and check if it fits the expected :D
One thing that happend is that after some regenerative bracking the battery comes alive again, and was possible to use the motor again but any higher aceleration and/or up hill it shut off again, I did this just once :D. Then I tested turning off the key and on again, the battery comes live again but I did not used the motor because I know that if the bms cut off, it was time to pedal back home and not to squeeze the battery :D
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Today it is 34ºC here. The pie turned off SEVERAL times, a few times after some long regenerative breaking. Two times at flat terrain at full speed and other few times due to current limiting at some hills.
It is very uncomfortable to lose the motor torque while at a big hill without the time to change the bike gear. I should be more wise to program the controller to automatically reduces the torque, and reduce the heat, before the need to actually turn off.
But actually the most annoying was the after regen. cut, it should have some warning as a buzzer beep or something to know the reason for the motor's cut out.
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The battery connector is made of brittle plastic and is broken!! I fixed it with some glue, patience and tape but when I pass on rough terrain sometimes the negative pole slides out the battery connector...
They will give me a new connector, for the warranty, but they need to check their suppliers to have a better connector. I do not know how it was braked, one time was ok and the next time I checked was just broke. But nothing hard happened between these checks.