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General Category => General Discussions => Topic started by: erdurbin on July 17, 2007, 06:07:26 PM

Title: Rigid power tools 18 volt batteries offer lifetime warranty
Post by: erdurbin on July 17, 2007, 06:07:26 PM
If you get a Rigid 18 volt drill, it comes with 2 batteries and a charger. Currently at Home Depot for 179. They are 2.5 ah each. You would have to wire them in series to get your 36 volts, but the great thing is that they offer a lifetime warranty. I am not really sure what has to happen to the battery for it to become unusable, but I am assuming if it doesn't hold charge, you send it to them for replacement. I will call Rigid tools this week sometime to follow up on this guarantee. This could be batteries for life on your e-bike!
Title: Re: Rigid power tools 18 volt batteries offer lifetime warranty
Post by: myelectricbike on July 17, 2007, 08:19:25 PM
You also need to check and see if using them to power an ebike will void the warranty.  :(

Update... As I suspected, the Rigid lifetime warranty does not cover use for "...unintended purposes..." of which using the batteries to power an electric bike is one.  :(

In other words if and when the battery fails you have to make a choice between sacrificing your integrity and eating the cost.
Title: Re: Rigid power tools 18 volt batteries offer lifetime warranty
Post by: erdurbin on July 17, 2007, 08:31:35 PM
No, you just don't mention it. If you leave the battery pack intact, there should be no problem. There is no way for them to know. I would think an ebike would use the battery just the same as a power tool. You are simply discharging and recharging.
Title: Re: Rigid power tools 18 volt batteries offer lifetime warranty
Post by: erdurbin on July 17, 2007, 08:44:17 PM
LIFETIME SERVICE AGREEMENT FOR RIDGID® HAND HELD POWER TOOLS, STATIONARY
POWER TOOLS AND PNEUMATIC TOOLS
In addition to the 3-Year Limited Service Warranty currently included with RIDGID® Brand Hand Held
Power Tools Stationary Power Tools, and Pneumatic Tools, purchasers of these products may elect
for a limited time to receive a free Lifetime Service Agreement. To accept this Lifetime Service
Agreement, you must register your product and submit proof of purchase as described below. The
Lifetime Service Agreement provides the original owner of qualifying RIDGID® Brand tools a lifetime
of free replacement batteries, free service and free replacement parts subject to the limitations set
forth below.
The Lifetime Service Agreement is available free of charge, for a limited time commencing April 15,
2005, on all RIDGID® Brand hand held power tools, stationary power tools and pneumatic tools,
subject to the terms and conditions stated below. Customers have 90 days from date of purchase to
register tools for the Lifetime Service Agreement.

PROOF OF PURCHASE (RECEIPT AND ORIGINAL UPC CODE) WILL BE REQUIRED WHEN
REGISTERING.
REGISTER YOUR TOOLS THROUGH RIDGID.COM TO ACCEPT THE RIDGID® BRAND
LIFETIME SERVICE AGREEMENT
To accept the RIDGID® Brand Lifetime Service Agreement, you must register your qualifying
RIDGID® Brand Hand Held Power Tool, Stationary Power Tool or Pneumatic Tool within 90 days

after purchase. For expedited handling, register by logging on to www.ridgid.com, click on “Support,”
then “Product Registration,” and choose the appropriate product category to be led through the
registration process. You may also register by US mail - simply complete a registration form found at
point of purchase, then mail the card together with a copy of your store receipt and the original UPC
from the package of the qualifying product to: RIDGID® Hand Held and Stationary Power Tool
Technical Service, PO Box 1427, Anderson, SC 29622.
All registrations must be made under the name of an individual person. Within approximately 6-8
weeks after completion of the registration process, you will receive confirmation via email or US mail
that will include your Lifetime Service Agreement Identification Number. Keep track of this number as
you will need it in order to obtain service for your product under the Lifetime Service Agreement. A
Lifetime Service Agreement card will be mailed to you; this will also include your Lifetime Service
Agreement Identification Number.

Customers who purchased qualifying RIDGID® Power Tools between Feb. 1, 2004 and April 14,
2005 may register those tools by completing the on line form at www.ridgid.com or a registration form
(found at point of purchase) and also mailing in a copy of the store receipt to the address above.
Registration must be postmarked by August 12, 2005.
WHAT IS COVERED UNDER THE LIFETIME SERVICE AGREEMENT:
The Lifetime Service Agreement on RIDGID® Hand Held Power Tools, Stationary Power Tools and
Pneumatic Tools covers all worn parts in properly maintained tools, including normal wear items such
as brushes, chucks, motors, switches, gears and even cordless batteries in your qualifying
RIDGID®Brand hand held and stationary power tools; and replacement rings, driver blades and
bumpers on RIDGID® Brand pneumatic tools for the lifetime of the original owner. This Lifetime
Service Agreement does not apply to other RIDGID® Brand products.
HOW TO OBTAIN SERVICE DURING THE INITIAL 3-YEAR LIMITED WARRANTY
The Lifetime Service Agreement commences after the expiration of the standard RIDGID® 3 year
Limited Warranty. To obtain service for this RIDGID tool during the 3-year Service Warranty, you
must return it, freight prepaid, to an authorized RIDGID service center for hand held and stationary
power tools. You may obtain the location of the authorized service center nearest you by calling (tollfree)
1-866-539-1710 or by logging on to the RIDGID website at www.ridgidwoodworking.com.
HOW TO OBTAIN SERVICE UNDER THE LIFETIME SERVICE AGREEMENT
YOUR LIFETIME SERVICE AGREEMENT IDENTIFICATION NUMBER AND PROPER PERSONAL
IDENTIFICATION MUST BE PRESENTED WHEN REQUESTING SERVICE COVERED UNDER
THIS AGREEMENT.
To obtain service for this RIDGID® tool under the Lifetime Service Agreement, you must return it to
One World Technologies, Inc., attn: RIDGID® Hand Held and Stationary Power Tool Technical
Service, 1428 Pearman Dairy Rd, Anderson, SC 29625, freight prepaid, or take it to a designated
service center. You may obtain the location of the designated service center nearest you by calling
(toll free) 1-866-539-1710 or by logging on to www.ridgid.com. Not all authorized RIDGID® Brand
service centers have been approved to provide service under the Lifetime Service Agreement. When
requesting service under the Lifetime Service Agreement, you must present your Lifetime Service
Agreement Identification Number and proper personal identification (a valid driver’s license, passport,
or military I.D. or a valid Social Security card with photo ID). The designated service center will repair
or replace any part covered under the Lifetime Service Agreement, at our option, at no charge to you.

WHAT IS NOT COVERED
This Service Agreement applies only to the original registered owner and may not be transferred. This
Service Agreement only covers wear and tear or failure of the tool arising under normal usage and
proper maintenance. It does not cover any malfunction, failure or defect resulting from misuse,
abuse, neglect, alteration, modification or repair by anyone other than an authorized service center
for RIDGID® brand hand held, pneumatic and stationary power tools, any damage or malfunction
inflicted upon the tool by the user or other external sources, or any failure to comply with the warnings
and instructions in the operator’s manual.
Consumable accessories provided with the tool such as, but not limited to, saw blades, planer blades
and knives, insert bits, drill bits, grinding wheels and discs, cut off wheels, sand paper, safety glasses
and fasteners are not covered.
SERVICE AGREEMENT COMMUNICATIONS
All Lifetime Service Agreement communications should be directed to One World Technologies, Inc.,
attn: RIDGID® Hand Held and Stationary Power Tool Technical Service or call (toll free) 1-866-539-
1710
ADDITIONAL LIMITATIONS
This Lifetime Service Agreement is not a warranty; it does not alter or limit the 3-Year Limited Service
Warranty provided with your product, and it is not intended to create any implied warranties or rights
of any kind including any warranties of MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR
PURPOSE. Any such implied warranties are expressly disclaimed. To the extent they cannot be
disclaimed they are hereby limited to three years from the date of purchase. One World
Technologies, Inc. and RIDGID, Inc. are not responsible for direct, indirect, incidental or
consequential damages. Some states restrict limitations on how long an implied warranty lasts and/or
do not allow the exclusion or limitation of incidental or consequential damages, so the above
limitations may not apply to you. This Agreement gives you specific legal rights, and you may also
have other rights which vary from state to state.
PRIVACY POLICY
A detailed statement regarding measures to preserve the privacy of information submitted in
connection with communications regarding your RIDGID® Brand tool is available at www.ridgid.com.
This product is manufactured by One World Technologies, Inc. The trademark is used pursuant to a
license granted by RIDGID®, Inc.


So pretty much, you just have to register your product with all the required documents and you are set for a lifetime replacement guarantee. I hope that there is a good deal during the Christmas rush and I will probably buy a set. My SLA's should last until then.
Title: Re: Rigid power tools 18 volt batteries offer lifetime warranty
Post by: OneEye on July 17, 2007, 09:24:30 PM
You will want to ensure your e-bike uses a similar cutoff voltage and power draw as the power tools they are designed for.  If you exceed the draw and depth of discharge their tools use they might have a reason to become suspicious of abuse.  As long as the e-bike community using the cells is small and discrete, you may be able to get away with this "under the radar" so to speak.  If you stay within those constraints, there shouldn't be any reason to think the packs are being used more than full time contractor.

There is a cold set of equations corporations use to make sure they don't lose their shirts to warranty claims.  I'm sure they are behind the lifetime warranty for this:

1.  A significant percentage of owners will fail to register the battery/tool, or will not be the original purchaser, or will lose the appropriate documents.

2.  Only a few tool users are going to burn through thousands(?) of cycles on a battery pack to the point where the battery falls below its specified end of life (is that going to be 80% of original capacity, or do they game this by saying it is something lower, like 60%?)

3.  A contractor who does use the tool enough to burn through a few thousand cycles will probably wind up destroying the battery pack in an incident that can be legitimately classified as abuse (dropping from scaffolding to concrete pavement, running over with a truck, etc), and voids the warranty claim.

4.  For those who do burn through that many cycles, a percentage will simply resort to replacing them by purchase rather than by running through the hassle of a warranty claim.

Overall they have to be pretty confident the number of claims that do come in will be small enough they can service them without undue hardship to the company's bottom line.  A bottom line that is hopefully larger due to increased market share amongst buyers.

It is a similar equation the corporations use when advertising a rebate.  I read a statistic that perhaps fewer than 40% of rebates are actually fulfilled.



Other than the warranty (which will probably be usable if you don't get caught violating its terms) what are the fundamentals of the cell chemistry and technology they are using?  It would be nice to know how many cycles the manufacturer is anticipating the cell life to be.

-Mike
Title: Re: Rigid power tools 18 volt batteries offer lifetime warranty
Post by: OneEye on July 17, 2007, 09:41:35 PM
Thinking back on the DeWalt discussion, range is obviously an area for consideration.  How far do you intend to ride on these packs?  I'm assuming each pair is good for about 3 miles of range, so depending on your needs you may want 4, 6, 8, or even more of these packs.  The rated draw on the batteries may also drive how many packs you need to distribute the load and keep it from killing the packs (and being declared abuse, voiding the warranty).

Companies will also consider refunding the original purchase price to "repeat offender" customers who have too many warranty claims.  It allows the company to say they did everything reasonable to satisfy the customer, and reduces the red ink to a 1-time write-off.

Once again, the basics of the chemistry and technology used in the cells is an important part of the discussion.
Title: Re: Rigid power tools 18 volt batteries offer lifetime warranty
Post by: mustangman on July 17, 2007, 11:54:07 PM
I agree with OneEye, I worked for for AutoZone and if we suspected abuse of the "lifetime" warranty the management team would simply refund the customers money and void the transaction. I have one question, are these NiMh , Lithium ion or LiFePo4 batteries?? The difference would greatly affect the life and charge rate of the battery packs.
Title: Re: Rigid power tools 18 volt batteries offer lifetime warranty
Post by: OneEye on July 18, 2007, 12:16:21 AM
I haven't been able to find out from a few quick web searches what the chemistry/technology is.

If I were forced to make a guess I'd say it might be the e-moli lithium ion.  I think that chemistry was one of the first battery chemistries to make it into the 2000+ cycle range.  The company would be daft to back a product with a lifetime warranty if it couldn't make it into the thousands of cycle range.  Anything less and you call it a consumable, like the saw blade or drill bit.

-Mike
Title: Re: Rigid power tools 18 volt batteries offer lifetime warranty
Post by: myelectricbike on July 18, 2007, 08:38:03 AM
Perhaps you should write both Rigid and Dewalt and ask them if their LiFePo4 battery warranty would cover using the batteries to power your ebike. Although you risk getting a negative answer you might also give Rigid and Dewalt the idea of not only developing a universal battery pack but to develop a hub motor specifically for their use. After all they are both in the business of making motors to power tools and have long since moved to BLDC PM technology. The hub motors they would manufacture and sell would most likely cost well over $500.

That way you can remain above reproach and the rest of us as well. ;D
Title: Re: Rigid power tools 18 volt batteries offer lifetime warranty
Post by: erdurbin on July 18, 2007, 08:27:48 PM
I bought a Rigid kit today and hooked it up for a few minutes. The batteries were not fully charged and I still got 22.5 mph freewheel speed. I am letting one charge while I am at work and will be charging the other later. Since I only have 2 18v batteries and they are rated for 2.5ah, I am not sure how long I can ride, but I will be taking a test ride and will post the results soon. Even though these seem a little more expensive than some other options, if you get 5 years out of them and then they replace the batteries even once, you get 10 years worth of batteries. I know it is a lifetime warranty, but who knows where e-bikes will be in 10 years.
Title: Re: Rigid power tools 18 volt batteries offer lifetime warranty
Post by: OneEye on July 18, 2007, 09:43:02 PM
I'd love to hear your results.  How far can you go on the two batteries?  Please remember to include a description of the major variables, i.e. hills/terrain, how many stops you had to make at lights or signs, headwind or tailwind, what your cruising speed was, etc.  Peak amps and total delivered energy would be nice to know, but not everyone has the equipment to measure that.

-Mike
Title: Re: Rigid power tools 18 volt batteries offer lifetime warranty
Post by: myelectricbike on July 18, 2007, 09:56:14 PM
Sure hoped you asked if the lifetime warranty covered using them to power your ebike.
Title: Re: Rigid power tools 18 volt batteries offer lifetime warranty
Post by: erdurbin on July 19, 2007, 01:41:07 PM
It turns out, they work. I put 2 18volt batteries in series for my 36 volts. I only had the equivalent of 2.5ah, so it wasn't much to write about. The first hill I hit, the controller cut out from low voltage. I pedaled along with it and was able to use the motor again. I never really got about about 10mph (and that was downhill). I could only use about 1/4 throttle if I wanted to use any power. Full throttle was out of the question! It wouldn't last more than a second. I am wondering if I hooked up about 6 of these to give me the standard battery pack of 7.5ah. The sweet thing was it was very light! I had my old bike back. I guess I was only carrying about 3 lbs worth of batteries. The li-ion rigid batteries are very light, just wish they were more powerful. Staying around 6 mph, with intermittent hills, no wind, I achieved about 2 miles before the batteries went completely dead. If I did parallel, I would hope the voltage would not drop so suddenly on full throttle. If I ever gave it around half throttle uphill, the motor would "pulse" like it was receiving the power off and on. I didn't let this go on too long.

I know on my 12ah 26v SLA setup, when I hit full throttle uphill, the battery meter goes to half, but quickly jumps back to full after I let off. It was similar with the rigid pack, but I just couldn't get the torque or top end I needed.
Title: Re: Rigid power tools 18 volt batteries offer lifetime warranty
Post by: OneEye on July 19, 2007, 03:14:45 PM
Sounds like the packs are limited in how many amps they can produce.  The controller wants to pull 20A from them and they drop voltage in response.  If we knew the fundamentals of the battery we might be able to guess how many packs it would take to satisfy the controller.  It also might tell us what the recommended low voltage cutoff is on the cell/pack, so we know if the controller is using a limited percentage of the available Wh in the cell.  I'm a bit surprised by your experience.  I would have assumed the batteries were rated for 10C draw for their use in a power tool.  What is the claimed Watt power on the drill's user manual?

The reported high draw rates available from the DeWalt / A123 cells is one of the things that has the different battery user communities excited.  They have been user tested at 30A for a single cell, and according to the manufacturer's spec sheet are rated at 70A continuous, 120A burst!  I'm pretty sure such high draws will reduce cycle life by a lot, but at 30A they ran for 1000 cycles at 100% depth of discharge, which is quite impressive.

Are you planning on returning these to the store, or did you buy them in part for the bike and part for the drill?
Title: Re: Rigid power tools 18 volt batteries offer lifetime warranty
Post by: erdurbin on July 19, 2007, 06:21:15 PM
I think I will return under the 90 day policy. I just wanted to see what they would do. I didn't unpack anything except the batteries, so I'll just pack them back up and return. Maybe they will come out with a 36v soon and I can get a couple with the lifetime. If not, I will probably go for 4 dewalt 36v packs for 9.6ah wired in parallel. this will be around 450 dollars, but should give me plenty of range and 5 years worth of riding.
Title: Re: Rigid power tools 18 volt batteries offer lifetime warranty
Post by: myelectricbike on July 19, 2007, 06:38:52 PM
As I suspected, the Rigid lifetime warranty does not cover use for "...unintended purposes..." of which using the batteries to power an electric bike is one.  :(

In other words if and when the battery fails you may have to make a choice between sacrificing your integrity and eating the cost.
Title: Re: Rigid power tools 18 volt batteries offer lifetime warranty
Post by: mustangman on July 23, 2007, 08:11:20 PM
Hey, Myelectricbike I agree with you 1000%!!!  Honesty and intergrity are worth far more than money,(Once you establish a bad reputation, it usually stays with you)
Title: Re: Rigid power tools 18 volt batteries offer lifetime warranty
Post by: myelectricbike on July 24, 2007, 07:01:00 AM
That's all Golden owners need is a rep that we are not above board, on the level, straight as the old pin, etc., sort of like the bad rep that guys who ride Harley's have because it was the Hell's Angles preferred ride. Hey, its bad enough being thought of as that Bat Man character with the question mark and the electric bike or that other guy that got caught in an adult theater having a good time by himself.

Makes me cringe every time I think about it.

Title: Re: Rigid power tools 18 volt batteries offer lifetime warranty
Post by: OffGrid on September 03, 2007, 04:07:54 PM
Ok guys (& gals),

You are embarrassing this newbie with all of the talk about how to beat the system through warranty replacement.  Except for those who just want to "beat the man", the satisfaction in this game should be pretty thin.

I am with you all the way on trying to maximize performance, including price/performance, but not at the expense of "gaming" the manufacturers completely outside of their own "game".   

I did like the suggestion of putting the bug in Rigid or DeWalt's ear about another market for their cordless systems... namely electric transportation.   I'm a Ryobi man myself, but that is more for the low-priced variety of tools they offer up.   I love my chop saw and circle saw above all the others... not a huge capacity or duty-cycle but handy as hell.

For commuter folks, I can imagine a pair of DeWalt batteries charging at their desk and a pair at home and a pair on their bike (assuming they can get buy on a simple pair).    A similar  setup might allow for 4 in parallel-series... when you get to work (or home) you pop 4 batteries out, put 2 into the charger, come morning you have 2 from  yesterday and two freshly charged.   You put the two extras in the charger for tomorrow and ride to work where you have two fully charged from the day before, pop two of the semi-depleted ones in... and you have 4 hot ones at the end of the day (and two to put into the empty charger for overnighting. 

I'm a big fan of cordless tools because they are very convenient both in their own right, and in their utility in a low-voltage, off-grid homestead.  Modern power-electronics make them even more valuable (low-loss voltage conversion and smart chargers, etc.)

I got on this forum because I was interested in the possible use of electric hub motors as generators for my bicycle-wheel based windmill(s).  I'll go into this more in a separate top-level post.

- OffGrid
Title: Re: Rigid power tools 18 volt batteries offer lifetime warranty
Post by: myelectricbike on September 03, 2007, 05:09:49 PM
You might want to check out the homemade generator on the instructables (if I find time I'll replace this with the link).  :D As I recall it will do 1,000 watts and may cost a lot less than an ebike hub motor plus it is designed to be waterproof, although you could probably waterproof a hub motor if hub motor cost is not an issue. I'm curious though... where can you find a place now-a-days where there is not a hookup near enough to get on the grid?  ???
Title: Re: Rigid power tools 18 volt batteries offer lifetime warranty
Post by: OffGrid on September 03, 2007, 05:42:29 PM
 I will look up the "homemade generator" instructions (on the GoldenMotor site?).

 Where can you get off-grid? 99% of the earth surface!

 Take a look at the night-sky maps (such as http://www.fourmilab.ch/earthview/ ) to see where there are no lights at night.   Most of those places also have no grid-power.  Even in the US... even in relatively urbanized areas, grid power is not always already at one's fingertips, *somebody* has to string come copper wire (with attendant transformers, breakers, etc.) to electrify a new room, building, subdivision.

This is a social/political as much as technological question.

Many electric bike enthusiasts want to decrease their footprint on the earth.  By not sucking electrons out of the wall-socket , at the expense of line and transformer losses all the way back to (the hydro-electric dam that many resent for it's mere existence; the coal-fired generator for its egregious pollution, the nuclear power plant for its potentially devastating effects, etc.)   

I happen to live in the mountains of the southwest of the US where there are still plenty of places where grid-power is at least miles if not tens of miles away from otherwise desireable places to live.   Rather than cut a swath of trees 100 feet wide, it seems like a good alternative to simply ignore the electric company/coop and build a somewhat more self-sufficient home-power complex.

I am a tinkerer (like many others here, including you?) and I do these things for their own entertainment as well.  I actually *do* have grid power.   I and 3 other homes have a 3 mile power-line attaching us to the regional electric co-operative.  It is convenient but not efficient.  I have a good professional job so the electric bills hardly mean anything to me.  I can go out and buy a fancy electricity generating windmill for thousands of dollars, or enough solar panels & batteries to run my household w/o much conservation for tens of thousands... but I'm interested in "doing more with less".  I'm interested in how a DYI aesthetic/ethic can transform our culture in many aspects.

My professional work includes distributed energy systems.   In particular distributed energy grids.   I like the idea of a distributed system for electric power where my windmill(s) fill my batteries, then lift water into my pond and domestic storage until, and some combination of these sources can be used to irrigate my garden, power my tools, power my home appliances, light my house, etc.   I also like the idea that if my system(s) generate more (peak) power than I need, my neighbors will get the advantage of it... and if collectively our capacity exceeds our needs, our regional neighbors will get the advantage, etc. 

Urban (and suburban) settings don't make as much sense or aren't as obvious... but I think that combinations of spot-generation/distribution combined with efficient utilization (e-bike vs motorbike vs automobile) could make our energy systems much more robust and less dependent on centralized/foriegn/industrial sources.

OffGrid is a (convenient) misnomer, while I like/support those who are (or aspire to be) off the grid, I'm even more interested in those who augment or even reverse their grid usage... 

- OffGrid

Title: Re: Rigid power tools 18 volt batteries offer lifetime warranty
Post by: myelectricbike on September 03, 2007, 05:45:25 PM
instructables site (http://www.instructables.com/id/E1CFJRQRD5EP286605/) ...also look for other instructables along these lines, although some are looked up for you.

Oh, in the land of the Earthship homes. Gotcha. Would move there myself but not this late in life. Have seen some of the homes built from tires, now rented out to Eco-tourists. Some exceptionally nice.

Heard of a microbiologist with similar ideas as your own who moved to South America to find one of those tributaries where electric eels are plentiful.   8) Some kind of biological based power extraction experiment they would not fund for him in the States where he worked. He had this idea that if he could zap bugs with high voltage to feed fish then feed the fish to the eels he would have a self sustaining system.  ::) Still waiting to see one in action or at lease a can of electric cells I can mount on my ebike and use a bug catcher to charge.  ???
Title: Re: Rigid power tools 18 volt batteries offer lifetime warranty
Post by: OffGrid on September 03, 2007, 07:05:13 PM
MyEbike -

Earthships for sure, though maybe 90 miles from here... and not exactly my cup of tea.   I *am* a bet of the neo-retro-survivalist at heart, but as *I* age, I prefer my comforts and conveniences over my ideas and ideals...

I don't know about the Electric Eel or bug-processing strategy... but maybe we can rig you up with a mason jar filled with fireflies as a way to ride at night without using your battery power.

Seriously, I have reason to believe we are only a decade or so away from fuel-cells capable of processing a wide variety of hydrocarbons.   A series of conversion steps would be required to take the bugs (you pick out of your teeth from grinning while riding at high speed) and make them into suitable feedstock for a fuel cell... but your bicycle might just end up with a multi-chambered digestion system...

Of course, electric motors will be passe by then and your spokes will be made out of electro-contractable carbon fiber, causing the wheel to deform itself continuously, rolling "downhill" the whole way (at the expense of energy input to contract/expand the spokes).

Thanks for the instructables link...  this is a new site/resource to me.

Without the bile some of the commentors threw in, I was disappointed at his lack of detail/completeness (2 amps but how many volts/watts?  Which permanent magnet motor? )

Aren't GoldenMotor hubs waterproof?  Doesn't anyone ever leave their bike out in the rain or ride through puddles?

I prefer wood/cloth vanes, but appreciated the relative simplicity.  He is taking advantage of the natural "twist" in bicycle spokes that drew me to them in the first place.

I am also looking at adding weights (filling the tire with water, etc.) to increase the flywheel effect, providing better modulation in gusty conditions, but higher startup-speed required.

Windmill details are obviously out of the scope of this group, but it is the intersection/overlap I'm entertained by...  similar components and at some level a similar goal.

- OffGrid
Title: Re: Rigid power tools 18 volt batteries offer lifetime warranty
Post by: myelectricbike on September 03, 2007, 07:28:24 PM
Well you are on the right track. Recently (haven't looked for the article yet) research was done on fuel cells fueled with sugar. The researchers used brewery waste (left over sugar from the fermentation process) as their source of fuel and enzymes to convert the energy in sugar to electricity. Their work was so successful that a brewery in Australia scaled up to process all the waste from the plant.

Keep looking through the instructables, there are a lot of projects there under a variety of off-the-wall names.

No ebike hub motors I know of are water proof although some of the controller circuit boards appear dipped in polyimide. You can do some waterproofing yourself with silicon (just bought a caulk container and a tube the other day) but water seems to find a way to seep into anything electric, the Hall effect sensor leads being the first victim.

Although a linear spoke motor with flexible rim might be a Ripple's favorite I think you would find the efficiency not quite as good due to the discontinuous motion of the spoke stroke. Continuous rotational motion appears to have the efficiency edge.

Again check deeper into the instructables. I've found some that are about motors that do not even use the word "motor" in the text and do not show up if you use "motor" as the keyword.
Title: Re: Rigid power tools 18 volt batteries offer lifetime warranty
Post by: OffGrid on September 03, 2007, 08:07:16 PM
> Well you are on the right track. Recently (haven't looked for the article yet) research was done on fuel cells fueled > with sugar. The researchers used brewery waste (left over sugar from the fermentation process) as their source of > fuel and enzymes to convert the energy in sugar to electricity. Their work was so successful that a brewery in
> Australia scaled up to process all the waste from the plant.

I work elbow-elbow with fuel-cell researchers... scientists, not engineers... so the concepts are extremely cool but the actual implementation at an industrial scale are many product life-cycles away I suspect.

>Keep looking through the instructables, there are a lot of projects there under a variety of off-the-wall names.

Thanks, it is an entertaining site.

> No ebike hub motors I know of are water proof although some of the controller circuit boards appear dipped in
> polyimide. You can do some waterproofing yourself with silicon (just bought a caulk container and a tube the other
> day) but water seems to find a way to seep into anything electric, the Hall effect sensor leads being the
> first victim.

I'm surprised they are not more waterproof naturally... there is plenty of electrical equipment that withstands weather exposure... and yes, silicon is quite effective for sealing up many things in a flexible, temperature-resistant manner.

> Although a linear spoke motor with flexible rim might be a Ripple's favorite I think you would find the efficiency not > quite as good due to the discontinuous motion of the spoke stroke. Continuous rotational motion appears to have
> the efficiency edge.

Nature has spent a long time searching design space for efficiency and while engineered systems do tend find circular motion a good solution, very few critters use it.   Even the flagella of sperm cells are doing a fancy little contraction-wave thingy...

Again check deeper into the instructables. I've found some that are about motors that do not even use the word "motor" in the text and do not show up if you use "motor" as the keyword.

And as you surely guessed, I was mostly just speculating out loud because I find such ideas entertaining...

I've probably ranged way too far off-topic for most of the folks here...

- OffTopic :)

Title: Re: Rigid power tools 18 volt batteries offer lifetime warranty
Post by: myelectricbike on September 03, 2007, 08:19:25 PM
I haven't done the research yet but that's an interesting idea to see whether it was God or man who first came up with the wheel... that said, however, my belief is that God created man, even if not the wheel, which he gave man as something man might do to find purpose after he was created. Hey, I can get off topic, as good as anyone else.  ;D
Title: Re: Rigid power tools 18 volt batteries offer lifetime warranty
Post by: myelectricbike on September 04, 2007, 01:26:42 AM
Okay, it appears that God beat us to it... again. Molecule of the Month (http://www.rcsb.org/pdb/static.do?p=education_discussion/molecule_of_the_month/pdb72_1.html)

Title: Re: Rigid power tools 18 volt batteries offer lifetime warranty
Post by: OffGrid on September 04, 2007, 03:18:25 AM
Alright! 

I guess I'll dust off my membership in the Foresight Institute and see if I can persuade Ralph Merkle's lab to construct some ATP Synthase to my spec... then I won't need any hub-motor or generator!

I hope you are referring to "God" in a figurative sense, not in an Intelligent Design sense, though I suppose it is your business if you are into ID...