GoldenMotor.com Forum
General Category => Magic Pie & Smart Pie Discussions => Topic started by: karma on January 23, 2011, 04:08:32 AM
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just wondering is there a thread here on running the pie delta wye?
has anyone attempted this yet. with all the room in that dish the mod should be straightforward ;D
cheers
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Hey Karma how you going with the */delta config??
Any progress ;)
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whats the benefit to the delta whe / speed power at the expense of efficiency ?
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Star or "Y" configuration provides the best torque at low speeds, whereas Delta produces far less torque but allows the motor to spin much faster.
If the hub is rewired using three heavy duty cross over relays, it is possible to switch between the two modes, giving you the best of both.
(Check out Doctorbass' video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAaTO67zWfw&feature=related) for more information.)
You would use Star mode for pulling away and low speed torque on hills etc, and could then switch over to Delta mode as you go faster.
This should allow a much higher speed, just as a higher voltage battery will usually increase the top speed.
If the motor is producing more power and more speed, it's also going to consume more battery power in the process.
Alan
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Hey Karma how you going with the */delta config??
Any progress ;)
i have a number of projects on the go. need to save for a pie the minute I get my hands on one ill post results ;D
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any progress? I think it's a good idea if you can make a switch to toggle between y and delta configuration.
that way, you can have 2 'gears' electrically.
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i think Gary sent me a e-mail about getting one I will need to dig it up got lost in all the e-mails ;D
this is what im working on now dual ended phase wires on a 1606 could be delta wye if I wished ;)
drilled out the axle.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82bC4HGx-og (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82bC4HGx-og)
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I think I'll try it one day....
I have 2 of these motors this guy is using, I didn't even know they were GM ! Well they look the same so I think they are from a standard mold/design.
Anyway would be good to get one cranking :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sr6G695TcWw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sr6G695TcWw)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bISjHht7ZNE&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bISjHht7ZNE&feature=related)
Oh and I found this.... yipes... I'm yet to find someone with something similar on their ebike... not sure how reliable it would be?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_41btVawMc&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_41btVawMc&feature=related)
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Another development for change the torque/speed characteristic of hub motor is with variable air gap.
The close the air gap, the more torque but reduces the RPM.
With the same voltage, a wider air gap will allow the motor to go at higher RPM but reducing the torque.
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It's variable magnetic field, like the last video I posted.
Not variable 'air gap' - air doesn't have anything to do with it :D
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Yes you are right.
Didn't see the video you posted. Tiga is solar car team from Japan. The motor they are running is Mitsuba with efficiency of motor and controller up to 94% normal mode. The cars are designed for World Solar Challenge in down under. Car may go as fast as 110km/h.
Some teams from the US is working on this technology as well, with the an american motor. The name just slipped my mind.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPNdeib39Mo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPNdeib39Mo)
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funny lookin Magic Pie there karmi ;)
wheres the PIE conversion?? I wanna see someone route the wires lol
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Anyone have a link for how the rewiring is done ?
Sounds like the perfect balance mod for the dual pie guys :)
regards
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vb5zCOl6Bpo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vb5zCOl6Bpo)
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hows that relevant to the question ?
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short but explicite vidéo..!
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What does this have to do with a Magic Pie? Wouldn't this be better suited over as ES
Gary
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What does this have to do with a Magic Pie? Wouldn't this be better suited over as ES
Gary
That's what I'm sayin...
Yes can we please keep this topic to Magic Pie mod only hence the topic name. There is a ton of wiring, winding switching videos everywhere geeez
I'd be very surprised if anyone can route the wires through the axle slot!
:D
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The best way to do Delta/Star switching on a Magic Pie would be to use three heavy duty relays mounted inside the hub and use a single small diameter wire (fed through the axle) to activate the relays as shown here:
(http://www.arhservices.co.uk/GoldenMotor/DeltaStarswitching.JPG) (http://www.arhservices.co.uk/GoldenMotor/DeltaStarswitching.JPG)
The three 40Amp 12Volt crossover relays (SPDT) are wired in series to allow direct connection to either a 36V battery, or a 48V battery when fitted with an additional resistor.
There should be plenty of room inside the Pie to accommodate the relays and all of the associated wiring.
Alan
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vb5zCOl6Bpo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vb5zCOl6Bpo)
Fair go mate, probably best if you change the title on that video. Gary has said on a number of occasions he is not the most technically minded (humble guy!), so how you believe he;[personally] built your products is beyond me...Fair go.
It also had absolutely nothing to do with the topic, again. So thanks Alan for posting something on the ball - what do you think about 6 x SPST relays (60A) or will it have to handle transient currents beyond this (with ~1.8 factor)
Another on topic thought is using an AND/NAND gate circuit with pull ups/downs through either the PAS wire for the relay signal - or on a switch with the RX/reverse wire that you switch should/when you want to change parameters.
Also if you made the MP external then a single wire from the axle could be used for a FSK or similar transmitter antenna for wireless or use the single wire for TTL serial linked to a microcontroller. Thats what I came up with but I need to better educate myself on coding interrupts... I need a time machine or a time stopper lol I'm too busy.
I would love to see a setup using the internal controller (with cap & FET changes, or maybe set very low?) with this in action. My dual drive is too precious to risk!
I'm off now because the Breville toaster I bought from Walmart is no good, so the guy at the cash register is gunna cop it!!!! (??)
;) peace out
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Oh god, Karma again. Lets take this to ES where it would be more on topic. Anyone want to follow Ill se you there.
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=236&p=379700#p379700
Gary
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What do you think about 6 x SPST relays (60A) or will it have to handle transient currents beyond this (with ~1.8 factor)
If a controller is limited to 40Amps max, I'm assuming this should be the maximum continuous current it can supply, regardless of the winding resistance or battery voltage. If the relay activation switch also cut the power to the throttle momentarily each time it was switched on or off, it would greatly reduce the switching load on the relay contacts.
I'm guessing that you're thinking of using those 60A latching relays for this, and if so, I would not recommend them for this particular application. Using three pairs of single throw relays could allow two (or possibly all three) of the phase wires to become completely short circuited if all three pairs of relays were somehow energised at the same time, or if any of the contacts were to arc themselves together whilst switching the relays with the motor under heavy load.
This shorting of the phase wires simply could not happen using double throw relays, because it's physically impossible for the moving contact to connect with both of the alternately switched contacts simultaneously.
Alan
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Hello!
So I tried the delta configuration on MagicPie with internal controller....
Basicly I used the diagram from Bikemad, just without relays, so it is permanent delta mode!
Went for a ride, but controller allways kicks out... (not if I ride up to 25 km/h with slow accelerations) I don't even get the 600W (1700W max on star mode) on CA and max ampage was 10-12 A,(20-25A in star mode) don't know why is that!! :-\ Just need to turn off for a second and I can go again...
Also it is much louder :o
Here is a link to youtube (you might turn the volume down on your speakers): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBmmXoONXzk
Mybe I should try this with Infineon 12fet Lyens edition?!?
Gašper
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Thanks for posting the results of your Delta testing Gašper, but it's disappointing that the internal controller is unable to cope with the lower resistance of the Delta windings.
Perhaps it would be improved with an external controller due to the slightly increased resistance of the longer phase leads.
As the controller cuts out at such a low current, I guess there is not going to be enough power to achieve a higher top speed than you had before, unless you're going downhill.
Alan
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Hi there
Do you have any photos as to how this is achieeved, internally
i know I sound dumb, but with 3 kidss, by the time I hit the forum, im innebriated, so different grounding of the phases just passes me by
with a different controller,m this may be just anout right, with the 1.7 multiplication of speed
r
regards
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Hi there
Do you have any photos as to how this is achieeved, internally
i know I sound dumb, but with 3 kidss, by the time I hit the forum, im innebriated, so different grounding of the phases just passes me by
with a different controller,m this may be just anout right, with the 1.7 multiplication of speed
r
regards
Lol, nice typos! Cheers!
Gary
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Gapy well done!@!@ wooo someone with a motive :)
Oh yeah and I dug up this picture of Ginge I found :) hehe
(http://www.thewritersmanifesto.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/drunk_at_computer.jpg)
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Ok, anyone interested-here is the procedure....
1. Open the cover on the side where wires comes out (plenty of post on how to do that)
2. Locate where the three phase wires are connected (in star mode) and dissconnect them
3. You have to find wich wire is the end of wich phase -that can be done simply with ohm meter
4. Before soldering of extension wires (15 cm) I have to sand the of the varnish othevise solder wont stick up (pic.1)
5. Soldering. Make shure you have enough solder on the wires-bad connection may leed to unwanted side effects (pic.2)
6. Try to fix the 3 whires on the stator to ensure they will not came in contact with the cover and push them on the other side (pic.3)
7. If you are sure you did a good job you can now close this side and open the cover on the other side....
8. Once again measure the wires for color and solder them in delta mode
yellow to green
green to blue
blue to yellow
9.Fix the wires on the stator (I fixed them to controller) (pic.4)
10. Close the cover, connect everything as it was and you are good to go (until controller kicks out ;D)
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Strangely, when I typed that last night, I wasnt drunk lol...i was covered in children and trying to cook dinner...
So there is how you avoid typo's.....drink more !!1
Gapy, many many thanks for the post, most excellent...seeing as my infineon is external, might try and change it later, will only take a few seconds, but colours are different, so ill have to figure it out, how do you check with the multimeter... ???sorry to be so dumb but clearly I need to be more educated
No changes to the hall sensors required ???
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dirtyginge:
multimeter lessons no.1 ;D
It is easiest if you have a diode sign on your multimeter-in my case it beeps when I connect the probes. So when it beeps you found it!
If you don't have diode sign, put the multimeter in ohm measuring mode-lets say range of 20ohms, and when you measure the phase it will give you a reading of about 10ohms (dont really know how much ohms I got) but when you are not on the right phase you should not get a reading!!
Now about the colors:
In my case from left to right there are green, blue, yellow.
lets say green is 1, blue is 2 and yellow is 3
now you have three wires called 1,2,3 and on the other you have 1a,2a,3a
connect in this order :
1a - 2
2a - 3
3a - 1
Hope this helps....
And there is no changes to hall sensors required!
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So I measured the top speed - free spin it goes 75k/h :o, but I assume that controller kicks out too soon!
Went for a short ride cause the roads are all wet and when driving up to 25 km/h it all works fine and I noticed that I don't need to turn off the pie to reset - just need to wait about 5 sec and it reset itself!
Also I noticed that the torque gains with the speed so I think you can hit the 65km/h when driving!
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Hi Gapy...many thanks for your help......All around the world now, there are guys looking at their wheels with a should I shouldnt I line of thought....
Now, I havent done this yet, but I think I may have done this by accident yesterday when changing to the infineon.
Is there a significant noise level, and a lot lot of vibration ????, if so then I did this yesterday, and revved the wheel well past 40MPH, but the noise was really really loud, and sounded as if someone had dropped bolts inside..
The bike was hopping all over the stand .....
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I doubt you did this just by changing to infineon, as you did not dissconnect the three wires and solder them to controller!?
If you have time try this, so that we know what happens with infineon, othervise I will do it in a week....
I do not get any vibration, but sound definetly is boosted!
by the way-did you have any problems getting the wires throu for infineon?
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Hi Gapy, really interesting.. ::)
I have just two questions: you'r shure don't lost more torque in permanent delta ?
and what volts you use 48 ?
Ah and thank for the lesson...
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Hi Gapy
the infineon colours on the three phase wires are different to the GM external controller, lots of experimentation had to be done to get them right
And as for getting new wiring into the hub, yes it was a nightmare
I got 5 rolls of thin cable for the halls, and the alphawire..getting them in was fine, but I found that the circlips kept cutting into the insulation...in the end I put a couple of layers of heatshrink on the part of the circlip that holds the wires, hopefully this should suffice....all in all, with the internal controller to external controller job, I think everything that could go wrong did lol
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lolo:
the torque is definetly decreased!! probably by factor 1.8... I was just saying that the motor gives more power in highier speed...
And yes I use 48V 20Ah LiFePo4
the infineon colours on the three phase wires are different to the GM external controller, lots of experimentation had to be done to get them right
dirtyginge:
you can not achive delta mode with swaping just the 3 phase wires that goes to the controller!! you must dissasemble the 3 phase wires that are connected together (not on the controller) and solder them on controller-in your case on phase wires that go to controller!
So if you can follow me.... at one time when the 3 phase wires that I am talking about are dissconected you should have a total of 6 phase wires in your Magic Pie!
Anyway... just went for a trip about 5km... Max amp 20A, min. Voltage 51.2V max speed 42.6km/h but there is realy more potential in there!!! :D
anyone know how can I fool the controller about phase resistance?
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right, got it, :)
so the bundles of phase wiring have to be split apart....purfect, now it makes sense
hmmm, might go for a complete pie re-wire in the summer, rip all the copper out, and put in some new windings...that for sure will complete my understanding of the system fully, new windings to a different count will make the speed difference anyway...time for honey wine open university
Gapy, many thanks for your time and patience in teaching us mere mortals, its appreciated.....if I can be of help, don't hesitate to ask
regards
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Anyone know how can I fool the controller about phase resistance?
Unfortunately I can't see an easy solution to it. Changing from Star to Delta effectively reduces the resistance across each pair of phase wires to a third of what it was before, which also means that the current across each pair of phase wires increases to three times that of the Star configuration for the same voltage.
It seems that the GM internal controller does not like working three times harder than it's supposed to. ;)
Does it still cut out at high speed, or are you able to use full throttle provided you are going fast enough first?
Just went for a trip about 5km... Max amp 20A, min. Voltage 51.2V max speed 42.6km/h but there is realy more potential in there!!! :D
What maximum speed were you getting before the Delta conversion?
Alan
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In my case from left to right there are green, blue, yellow.
lets say green is 1, blue is 2 and yellow is 3
now you have three wires called 1,2,3 and on the other you have 1a,2a,3a
connect in this order :
1 - 2a
2 - 3a
3 - 1a
Now I'm confused ??? in my original diagram, I presumed that the phase order was "Yellow - Blue - Green", because this is the order in which the magnets pass the hall sensors on my Pie when the wheel is turned in a forward direction:
(http://www.arhservices.co.uk/GoldenMotor/Hallsensors-1.JPG) (http://www.arhservices.co.uk/GoldenMotor/Hallsensors-1.JPG)
That would mean that:
The Yellow phase lead connects to the switched end of the Blue windings
The Blue phase lead connects to the switched end of the Green windings
The Green phase lead connects to the switched end of the Yellow windings
As shown in my original diagram here:
(http://www.arhservices.co.uk/GoldenMotor/DeltaStarswitching.JPG) (http://www.arhservices.co.uk/GoldenMotor/DeltaStarswitching.JPG)
But you say that you've connected your leads like this:
The Green phase lead connects to the switched end of the Blue windings
The Blue phase lead connects to the switched end of the Yellow windings
The Yellow phase lead connects to the switched end of the Green windings
As per this modified diagram:
(http://www.arhservices.co.uk/GoldenMotor/DeltaStarswitching2.JPG) (http://www.arhservices.co.uk/GoldenMotor/DeltaStarswitching2.JPG)
Now I'm not sure which one of the above diagrams is actually correct for the Magic Pie.
Either I've got the phase order wrong, or your pie is different to mine, but I'm not sure how can we find out for sure which of the above diagrams is correct, unless you want to pull your hub apart again and try changing your connections and see what happens? :o
Alan
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Bikemad your first diagram is ok!!!
1a - 2
2a - 3
3a - 1
the a was on the wrong side my mistake, gues I was a bit too quick writhing this :-*
will correct on previous post!!
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It still cuts out when I go full throttle, I was really soft on throttle when trying to achive top speed... Even if I just for a second try to accelerate a bit quicker it cuts off!
Before delta I got a 40km/h maximum speed!! So it is a 2.6 km/h boost up!! yei!!! :P
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I was hoping to do the delta wye conversion one day. But if that is all the speed gain you get I don't think I will bother. Please keep us posted on how you get on. even If it is to say you've given up.
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this only delta mode is not a question of money to do... if the benefice could be really, why the golden motor staff don't chosen this solution ? I think it's a good study but not for wind of nothing...
I like the Bikemad solution it's could be a electric gear box..! and giving a really benefice...
there is a brave to try this solution ?
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well, everyone would like a Bikemads solution, but it is no point of trying it if it does not work in delta at all!
I will have to try with lyens infineon controller....
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Ah yes I agree with you...! and I wait for another experience :P