GoldenMotor.com Forum
General Category => General Discussions => Topic started by: Electrobent on August 26, 2009, 03:57:11 AM
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I finally got my 48v battery packs built and put everything together: a 48V regen controller and a 48V 1000W wheel--both from Golden Motor in China--replacements for the 36V system that I road for three years and then fried.
The GM instructions were wrong for phase detection: you jump between the 12 possible options by goosing the throttle--Not flipping the power switch. They sent me the correct instructions but I still can't find a phase that has any torque with the wheel on the ground. It spins fast in the air but when I put it on the ground it wants to start out backwards. If I can peddle up to about 15 miles per hour and start the motor it will maintain that speed but my older 36V 500W motor went twice as fast.
The first thing I don't understand is why there are 12 possible phases with three poles.
Could they have swapped a couple wires? Like the ones to the Hall Effect Sensors?
Can I hurt anything by remapping the Hall effect wires?
GM parroted the same instructions to me repeatedly and once I told them that did not work they started ignoring me.
Has anyone worked out a diagnosis tree?
Any ideas?
Thanks!
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Has anyone worked out a diagnosis tree?
Here are some posts which may help:
Troubleshooting chart. (http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?topic=187.0)
More troubleshooting (http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?topic=28.0)
Alan
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If the controller and motor are both from GM I cant see how the wiring would be wrong, but on the off chance that they are then you may have to, as you say, remap the wiring. I had to do something similar when I bought a new controller (not GM, Infineon) for a different motor (not GM, GL-1). I've been told that even though all the wire colors were the same on the motor and controller that they did not necessarily match up because there is no international standard for what colors mean what. I found the following from Endless-sphere helpfull: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=3484 (http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=3484) Basically you have to try every combination of the wiring until the motor runs smoothly in the right direction. You shouldnt damage the motor or controller if you have no load and only turn the throttle a little, in other words do not give it full throttle. If you have the wrong combination the rotation will be very rough or stagger or the wheel wont rotate at all. There should be four combinations that work, two for forward and two for reverse.
Attached is a spreadsheet that can help determine the wiring combinations needed.
Muzza
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It looks like the spin the wheel to test the hall effect sensors is the easiest thing to do first
I am assuming that the red and black wires need to be connected to power the sensors but am I to unhook the red, blue and yellow wires or can I just poke my meter leads into the back of the connected molex connector?
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I am assuming that the red and black wires need to be connected to power the sensors but am I to unhook the red, blue and yellow wires or can I just poke my meter leads into the back of the connected molex connector?
Yes, the sensors will need to be powered in order to get an output from them.
It will probably be easier using the supply from the controller and testing the outputs at the back of the connector so long as you can make a good contact and take care not short anything out.
Black meter lead to black and the Red meter lead to each of the green, blue and yellow wires in turn and check for 0-5V pulses as you slowly rotate the wheel by hand.
Good luck with your testing, and please let us know the results.
Alan
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(http://www.goldenmotor.com/e-Bike-DIY/Regen%20Controller.jpg)
Is this the controller that you are using?
If so then you can try the following: Motor phases auto-detection and self calibration (Instructions) http://www.goldenmotor.com/e-Bike-DIY/Motor%20Phase%20Detection%20Procedures.pdf (http://www.goldenmotor.com/e-Bike-DIY/Motor%20Phase%20Detection%20Procedures.pdf)
Muzza.
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That's it and those are the incorrect instructions that would have you flip the switch instead of goosing the throttle.
Ok--I seem to get pulses on all three hall effect wires as I rotate the wheel.
How does one "Check FETs"?
The resistance from each of my colored phase wires to ground with no power to the controller is infinite so I don't think I am getting any helpful information there.
And how does one get Golden Motor to pay you any attention? I saw one guy who had a tantrum here and who eventually got a new controller sent out to him.
I also wish that they would learn that wheels are supposed to be round as well as true!
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Ok--I seem to get pulses on all three hall effect wires as I rotate the wheel.
How does one "Check FETs"?
The resistance from each of my colored phase wires to ground with no power to the controller is infinite so I don't think I am getting any helpful information there.
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Ok--I seem to get pulses on all three hall effect wires as I rotate the wheel.
How does one "Check FETs"?
I don't know if this will be of any help:
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_you_check_whether_mosfet_is_working_or_not (http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_you_check_whether_mosfet_is_working_or_not)
and
What is a mosfet? (http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?topic=369.0)
and
Transistor / MOSFET tutorial on YouTube. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Te5YYVZiOKs)
The resistance from each of my colored phase wires to ground with no power to the controller is infinite so I don't think I am getting any helpful information there.
At least you now know the windings are not shorted to ground ::)
You can disconnect the phase wires from the motor and check the resistance across two of the three phase wires ie blue and yellow and then compare the reading with those measured across blue and green and yellow and green.
You should have similar readings for each of the pairs measured, if one reading is significantly higher or lower than to the other two, you will probably have a break (if resistance is higher) or short (if resistance is lower) in one of the windings.
If the motor checks out ok, it could be the controller. (Is your old controller usable or did your it get cooked at the same time as the motor?)
If you have some means of checking the current being drawn from the battery while under load, a reading might be useful.
Does the motor feel lumpy or is it smooth (but sluggish) under load?
I was just going to say I'll keep my fingers crossed, but then realised I wouldn't be able to type!
Good luck anyway.
Alan
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After a six month hiatus due to Gout, I got back to my project. Someone on Endlesssphere suggested swapping the both the green and yellow power and hall effect sensor wires (green to yellow and yellow to green). I this and was able to ride the bike under only its power for half a mile or so before it got dark. It was hard to get started and noisy and chunky (I could feel the motor jump from magnet to magnet) when starting the first time but then started alright from a stop. If I shut off the power and coast it makes the chunky sound for a while before becoming quiet and then I have to start all over again to get it to spin forward smoothly. It is loud: a high pitched whining sound at top speed which is probably a little over 20 mph (I have a 20" wheel and weigh 250 lbs). It winds up slowly from a stop: it feels like it has less torque than I had with my 36 volt system. It also seems slower and like it can't find itself at first. The good news was that the batteries (NiMH) were at 51 volts after my 10-15 minute ride and having been charged a week ago.
Maybe the chunky sound is the regen braking?
Can I just disable that to simplify things?
Anybody have any other ideas?
Or is the 48V brushless gearless hub a different winding than the 36V one? I read some that there is a torque winding and a speed winding - - - but then the 48V seems wimpier than the 36V on both fronts?
Maybe mine got made on a Friday?
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Dont ever shut off any controller whist in motion, NEVER! While in regen it stresses the fets on your controller to the max.
My motor makes a camels grumble on take offs, makes lose stuff rattle and is quieter without a back rack to amplify the vibrations. This is perfectly ok as it is the way to make the motor and controller cheaply and has no adverse effect on any of the parts.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c251/soulelectronique/BLDCdiagram.gif)
The blue wires are to disable REGEN but you can not do it while in motion. Im not sure really just what Ive read as I wanted to do this with my bike.
I found regen gives you the best damed brake power around and I wouldnt disable it. I just add a trailer and pull the shopping home with a huge weight on the motor and have some fantastic brakes..
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thanks!
I'll play around with more tonight.
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Shorted out the blue wires to disable the regen braking.
If I turn on the power and push the bike before goosing the throttle it seems to start ok. Once it winds up it gets going a little faster than my old 36 V system but the acceleration is much less.
I guess its working but I am disappointed and preferred my 36V 500W set-up
I wonder if I would be happier with their new idiot-proof controller?
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It may be working, but it's obviously not working correctly.
It may be a hall sensor fault, but it will need further investigation to locate the problem.
Alan
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It may be working, but it's obviously not working correctly.
It may be a hall sensor fault, but it will need further investigation to locate the problem.
Alan
Yea you should be going a lot better than that. Usually the phase is set out of the box. what is your range? Have you checked all your wiring? How fast does it go?
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Wiring double and triple checked and then tried swapping yellow and green for both power and hall wires and that got this far.
I have 10AH of NiMH and I road about 5 miles (peddling for 4) and it dropped from 56V to 47V and seemed pretty useless there. I was expecting more.
I got pulses from all three hall effect sensors but I did not check for when they happened. Could a sensor be loose in the hub and in the wrong position?
It probably goes about 20mph by itself on the flat with a 20 inch wheel and my 250 pound fat ass. This seemed a bit slow.
What's next? Keeping track of the angular distance between hall effect pulses for each phase? What do I need? Three oscilloscopes?
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I have 10AH of NiMH and I road about 5 miles (peddling for 4) and it dropped from 56V to 47V and seemed pretty useless there. I was expecting more.
did you try a different battery as I think a drop of 9v is a bit much for 1 mile.
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Pretty sure the batts are good.
That was 4 miles of pedelling while the motor was going full tilt and one mile of just the motor.
At the end, down around 48V it would surge: go fast for a while and then slow down and then go fast again.
How hard is it to open these up to see if the Hall Effect Sensors are where they are supposed to be?
Its got to be easier than getting a response from Golden Motor!
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you got:
GM 48v battery pack
GM 1000W wheel
GM regen controller
what about taking the magic controller and ride it sensorless
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My battery pack is not GM
and my controller is not magic
All three Hall Effect sensors blink the 4.9 volts.
What I don't know is if they are blinking when they are supposed to.
I suppose one may be in the wrong place.
Need to find a 4 channel oscilliscope, build something with LEDs, or just take the cover off an look.
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OK--my electronics tech built the LED flasher jig to test the hall effect sensors
Turning the wheel in the correct direction we got the following color patterns:
Blue
Blue and Green
Green
Green and Yellow
Yellow
Yellow and Blue
this repeated 24 times in one wheel rotation
Does anyone know if this is the correct order?
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How hard is it to open these up to see if the Hall Effect Sensors are where they are supposed to be?
Check out this hall sensor replacment article on Instructables by Jeremy Nash (http://www.instructables.com/id/EWL8QR1F3SYTODB/)
Link taken from this post (http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?topic=28.msg178#msg178)
OK--my electronics tech built the LED flasher jig to test the hall effect sensors
Turning the wheel in the correct direction we got the following color patterns:
Blue
Blue and Green
Green
Green and Yellow
Yellow
Yellow and Blue
this repeated 24 times in one wheel rotation
Does anyone know if this is the correct order?
With 46 magnets, you should get 23 sets of pulses per revolution, but 24 is near enough.
(The first and last are probably the same one, but have been counted twice)
I don't know which order they should be in, but at least they do appear to be working correctly.
If the hall sensor signals are getting all the way to the circuit board inside the controller (no broken wires, poor connections or soldered joints etc.) Then my next check would be to make sure that all three of the phase outputs are:
(A) being sent from the controller
(B) actually reaching the windings inside the motor
(C) are in the correct sequence
Suggestion No 1
You should be able to check this by disconnecting the three phase wires and connecting a voltmeter between battery -ve and each of the phase wires in turn on the disconnected phase connector on the controller side.
Activate the throttle and then slowly turn the wheel by hand, the meter should indicate pulses of battery voltage on each of the phase supply leads.
If you don't get any pulses at all, go straight to the next suggestion.
If you only get pulses on two of the three cables, the fault will be in the controller itself, or the wiring attached to it which gave no reading.
If you get similar pulses on all three cables, continue to the next suggestion.
Suggestion No 2
Try connecting two of the three phase wires to the motor and see if it runs.
(You might need to spin it by hand to help it start.)
Repeat this two more times leaving a different phase lead disconnected each time and see whether the results differ.
If you find one of these combinations runs the same with one lead disconnected as it currently does with all leads plugged in, then the problem is either that particular lead or one of the two of motor windings connected to it.
I've run out of suggestions now, so let's hope something obvious shows up during these tests.
Alan
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There was nothing between any of the phase wires and ground with the hall wires installed, power on, and turning the wheel by hand.
I opened it up and the phase wires are oriented Blue Yellow Green and if you flip it over the hall wires are in the same order--but that is really the opposite order relative to the rotation of the wheel.
My LED test jig shows my hall firing order to be Blue Green Yellow
So I tried swapping the Green and Yellow phase wires to get things in the right order
It was close but it is still not right.
I put it back the way it was supposed to be and got 24Volts AC between each pair of phase wires if I leave them connected and run the motor.
Charging the bats now and then will systematically switch everything out
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OK--to summarize so far:
48V GM 20" front hub
48V GM Regen Controller--the big black one with the resistors and diodes on the back of the board
40 NIMH 10AH 5C D cells in series--about 57 volts freshly charged--nominally 48V
Put it all together and am unable to find a phase combination that gives torque on the ground.
The instructions on the GM site for phase setting don't apply to this controller: to step between options you "bump" the throttle for s second--I guess it is an improvement--you don't have to flip the switch. Finally sort out the procedure with Tom:
- Short purple-black pair
turn on system
bump throttle
observe
bump throttle
observe
. . . . .
until you figure out the pattern and can stop on the best one--which is still nothing like how the motor really runs.
unplug the purple-black jumper
bump throttle again
cycle power
test
Now it should smoothly spin up fast.
I could get this far but when I put the wheel to the ground performance was pathetic and it sucked a lot of juice.
Some one Endless Sphere suggested swapping green and yellow on both the power and hall effect wires. I did this and I think it got a little better but I don't know--I can make it sort of work like this under every combination of wires I have tried. I just can't make it run right.
We built an LED Hall Effect test jig and it showed that all the sensors were working and firing in the order Blue, Green, Yellow, and back to Blue again.
I opened up the hub and found the power wires attached in an arc: Blue Yellow Green
I opened the other side and found the hall effect wires attached in the same order but on the other side of the wheel so in opposite order of rotation.
So I am thinking this is a two step switcheroo: first we need to swap the yellow and the green to map the observed firing order of the hall effect sensors with the order in which the wires are soldered on the board. Second, we need to swap the end points--the blue and the green--to reverse the order so the sides of the wheel (power and hall) are going the same way as the wheel is spinning.
I dug out my oscilloscope and put it across Blue and Green; Green and Yellow; and Blue and Yellow power wire pairs. The patterns looked pretty much the same at full tilt.
My batts are charging and I'll try in on the ground tomorrow.
I must say that the workmanship on this hub is far better than it was on my GM 36 V from 2006 or so. I had been planning to seal the flange with some sort of gasket goo for waterproofing but decided that the fit was tight enough without it and that I would just make a mess if I put it on.
I have photos of inside the hub and the scope screens for each pair if I could figure out how to include them.
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I had been planning to seal the flange with some sort of gasket goo for waterproofing but decided that the fit was tight enough without it and that I would just make a mess if I put it on.
I have photos of inside the hub and the scope screens for each pair if I could figure out how to include them.
If you put a thin smear of Vaseline or grease around the flange joint it will help to keep water out and prevent corrosion at the joint.
To attach pictures to your post, clik the Additional Options... link and then the "Choose File" button and browse to the picture file on your computer.
Click (more attachments) to add up to 4 photos max.
Alan
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OK Here are my pics:
Phase wires and hall wires
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And here are the 'scope shots:
Do they look like they are supposed to?
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OK I tried this:
Suggestion No 2
Try connecting two of the three phase wires to the motor and see if it runs.
(You might need to spin it by hand to help it start.)
Repeat this two more times leaving a different phase lead disconnected each time and see whether the results differ.
If you find one of these combinations runs the same with one lead disconnected as it currently does with all leads plugged in, then the problem is either that particular lead or one of the two of motor windings connected to it.
I've run out of suggestions now, so let's hope something obvious shows up during these tests.
When I unplug the yellow power lead and run the motor it runs slowly,
If I unplug the green or the blue, it runs at the same speed as before.
I can swap hall wires, go through the phase detection procedure again, and try it again and it is still the yellow wire that slows things down.
I put an ohm meter across the motor leads and all pairs read 0.6 ohms.
I don't like the conclusion I draw.
Anyone have a rosier one?
Why do all my scope traces look good AND all my coils measure .6 ohms. Both of these should not be true.
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The motor seems to check out as long as you have done the testing and wiring properly. The batteries seem good, as you are sure of this, the throttle works fine as the motor would eother tun constantly or not at all. The last thing left is the controller. Check if the wiring to the controller hasnt got any lose strands of copper touching things and the hall input wires are connected properly. Ive had a single fet go out on a single channel and the performance sucked as it limped along. Its a hard thing youre doing. I do hope you fix things right.
The halls maybe right on the motor but maybe wired wrong in the controller. Check your pins in your connectors. Have you tried resetting the phase setting after you changed the hall order?
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I was hoping it was the controller, but I just swapped out the power wires (G:B, Y:G B:Y, Controller: Wheel) and it is still the yellow wheel wire that slows things down when disconnected. I think that the coil between the blue and green wires is bad. But why do I still get 0.6 Ohms across it?
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I can swap hall wires, go through the phase detection procedure again, and try it again and it is still the yellow wire that slows things down.
Try swapping the phase and motor wires and repeat the test to determine whether the fault is in the motor windings or the controller.
(Yellow motor wire or Yellow controller wire)
You beat me to it!
If with a different combination of phase wires the yellow Controller wire still slows the motor, it looks like the controller is at fault.
If however it's the yellow motor wire that slows the motor, then it sounds like a winding fault.
If the motor is wound in a delta configuration you may have a fault in the winding which goes directly between the Blue and Green wires.
(Most likely a poor soldered connection at the phase wire)
You will still get a resistance reading across the Blue and Green cables, but via the two other windings in series.
See Attachment below.
Alan
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I have triple checked it and it is the yellow wheel wire that slows things down.
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How could a delta run at all with two wires disconnected? One broken and one disconnected?
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How could a delta run at all with two wires disconnected? One broken and one disconnected?
It can run because it is a triangle, which allows the current to take the long route when the short route is broken.
If it were a Star configuration this would not be possible.
With a break in the windings as shown it would run on two phases. (As yours appears to be doing)
If you disconnect the yellow lead it becomes a single phase motor, but will run out of phase because it is using two windings in series instead of the correct broken winding.
(http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1218.0;attach=1275;image)
Look again at the diagram and hopefully it will make sense eventually.
Alan
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OK--I get it I was conflating disconnecting the lead and a break in the coil.
So now what? OPen in back up and see what is going on under those woven tubes that you can see in my photo?
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So now what? OPen in back up and see what is going on under those woven tubes that you can see in my photo?
That would be my next step.
I do hope it's just a poor soldered joint, and not a break in the windings!
Alan
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Ok--I took the wheel apart again and disconnected each phase wire from the 8 small enamel wires. I am hopeful that I am changing something as the solder seems really chalky and crumbles off with heat rather than melting. Because the solder is so bad, I go ahead and redo all three: unsolder, separate, sand, tin, re-twist, and resolder. I carefully vacuum out the hub, reassemble, and test.
I get the same damn thing: pull the yellow phase wire and it slows by half, pull the blue or green and no change.
There were 8 enamel wires on each connection so that means each coil is 4 wires--I find it hard to believe that they could all break but I guess they can.
At this point I am wishing I had taken the time to split the 8 into the right two groups of 4 so that I could have put an ohm meter across each coil.
So I guess this means that I am hosed: Golden Motor sent me a bad wheel.
How do I get them to send me another one without paying them another $295?
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I sent the email and am waiting for a reply.
its $295 to get another one here so I hope they take care of me,
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Those scope-shots you made earlier, are they from what's coming out of the controller? If so, could you also make scope-shots of what is coming out of the wheel (unconnected) when you give it a spin? I'm asking mostly out of curiosity but maybe something out of the ordinary shows up, which would be expected if there is a problem with one or more of the windings I reckon.
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I had the scope leads in parallel with the phase wires so yes they would be of pulses coming out of the controller.
You are suggesting that we see what things look like when we run the wheel as a generator.
That should work if I can spin the wheel fast enough.
I need to find a source of consistent wheel speed. Maybe I can rig something up with a drill motor.
I mean need 8 hands for all of this but it sounds like it will be worth doing.
Thanks!
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OK, I hooked the scope leads up to the 3 possible pairs of power wires coming out of the hub and drove the wheel in forward motion by holding my drill's chuck against the tire. I was surprised to get three very similar sine waves. Sorry for the bad photos--I could not find my tripod and held the drill in one hand and the camera in the other.
How can this be reconciled with the slowing being associated with the yellow MOTOR wire only and regardless of which controller wire it is connected to?
Could the sine wave be going around the long way without noticeable loss of amplitude?
Or is it a matter of current and I am getting the wave through some of the four strands but not enough to do the work under load?
Can we post videos anywhere? I could make a video of the disconnect one phase wire at a time test.
I will be institutionalized before I ride this bike!
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So no one has any ideas?
Have I already lost my mind?
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The first picture is to dark, but if it's a very similar sine wave then I don't see anything out of the ordinary though as that's what I would normally expect to see.
Anyway, thanks for posting the pictures, sorry I can't be of more help.
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OK--I started from scratch with freshly charged batts.
All wires color matched--both phase and hall.
connectors individually seated.
I went through the phase mapping sequence outlined in a previous post and found the best forward candidate. I then recorded full speed on my phone. I disconnected the blue pair and started it up again--no change, I disconnected the blue pair and again no change; but when I disconnect the yellow pair, the motor slows to what sounds like about half speed.
I reconnected the wires so that the green wires on the wheel went to the blue wires on the controller, the yellow wheel wires to the green controller wires, and the blue wheel wires to the yellow controller wires--for both phase and hall. Again, I carefully seated each contact and went through the phase mapping routine. This time I first unplugged the green wheel wire from the blue controller wire to notice no change, then the yellow wheel wire from the green controller wire which slowed the wheel down again by about half, finally, disconnecting the blue wheel fire from the yellow controller wire made no difference in the operation of the motor.
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Here are my thoughts regarding your findings:
It's obvious to me that the Yellow phase wire on the motor is the only one out of the three which is working properly, which is why the motor slows when this wire is disconnected.
As the Blue and Green Phase wires are not affecting the speed, it would appear that the problem is common to both of these wires.
As the most obvious thing these two wires have in common is the windings which go directly between them, it would be reasonable to expect that the fault is with these windings.
We already know that the windings are not shorted to ground.
It is highly unlikely that two pairs of windings have broken on a new motor.
I still suspect that the windings between the Blue and Green phase wires are incorrectly connected:
Option 1
One of the two windings has been connected in reverse, each cancelling out the magnetic field of the other.
(As indicated in diagram B above)
This is the option I would place my bet on.
Option 2
Both of the windings have been connected in a reverse direction, giving a reversed magnetic field.
(Similar to the lower winding shown in diagram B above)
Option 3
Each of the windings has been connected to just one phase wire, and would therefore produce no magnetism at all.
(As indicated in diagram C above)
If you had obtained two low and one high resistance reading (i.e. 0.3, 0.3 and 0.6 ohms) I would have chosen this scenario.
I could be barking up the wrong tree, but I feel sure it's option 1, but I'm not going to rule out option 2 just yet. ;)
Does anyone else have any opinions on these findings?
Alan
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The three pretty sine waves it made a generator lean me towards option 2.
All of these options are the result of manufacturing errors and not because of something I did to the motor.
Now the challenge is to convince GM that this is their error and that they should make it right.
I got a message back from Tom saying that my controller was out of its year-long warranty.
I took this as good news because it means that there is some sort of warranty. I have to hope it applies to wheels as well as controllers
I bought this wheel in June of 2009 and while it took several weeks to get here (it sat in my post-office for most of the time) and informed Philip and Tom of problems immediately so I hope this is covered under warranty.
I guess I give them a week to decide to send me a new wheel and then I start making a stink with Pay-Pal.
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I took this as good news because it means that there is some sort of warranty. I have to hope it applies to wheels as well as controllers
I bought this wheel in June of 2009 and while it took several weeks to get here (it sat in my post-office for most of the time) and informed Philip and Tom of problems immediately so I hope this is covered under warranty.
When I first started discussion with Golden Motor about distributing GM products in Canada, the subject of warranty was as you can imagine one of the top issues.
I was assured all products would carry a one year warranty.
So far due to the excellent quality of the product, we have had only one failure.
Once we were able to pin down the problem of the faulty item, it was replaced by a direct EMS shipment from China at no cost to the customer.
Let's hope this one year warranty applies worldwide, and not just in Canada. ::)
Alan
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But what is the process for making a warranty claim?
Presumably a request via email, quoting product details, date of purchase and a description of the fault.
(In your case, I would recommend you also include a link to this thread)
If they need more details, they can always email you.
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OK--I sent Tom both this thread and my PayPal receipt.
We will see what happens.
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OK--this is what happened!
Think its language?
Do I need to find someone to send an email in Chinese?
Hello electrobent
Have you solved your problem?
There is a drawing about regen controller.(PDF enclosed)
What's problem you haven't finished?
If your controller is okay,just wrong phase,how to detect it.
1.shorted the thin black wire and the thin purple wire;
2.put throught the battery and shorted the two pink wires;
3.push your throttle less than 1 second,then motor will run(push less than 12 times,you will find the correct phase)
when you find the correct phase,don't push your throttle again;
4.disconnect the thin black wire and the thin purple wire(No short)
5.push your throttle again,then the motor can run as the correct phase;
6.then can turn on/off your battery.
Best Regards
Tom
----- Original Message -----
From: "eric.ditwiler@gmail.com" <ygh@goldenmotor.com>
To: <zhourenli@goldenmotor.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 7:14 AM
Subject: Topic: Can't dial in my new 48V regen system (From electrobent)
> Dear Tom,
>
> I want you to check out "Can't dial in my new 48V regen system" on goldenmotor.com. To view it, please click this link:
>
> http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?topic=1218.0
>
> A comment has also been added regarding this topic:
> Here is the thread documenting my test of my defective motor
>
> Thanks,
> electrobent
And here is my response:
Tom:
No, I have not resolved my problem.
The wheel appears to be wound incorrectly.
The thread from the Forum documents this.
Unplugging the green or blue motor power wires does not change the speed of the motor.
This is true even when the motor wires are plugged into different color controller wires.
It appears as if the coil between the blue and green wires is connected backwards.
I don't know if this is something I can change or not.
Thank you for your help!
--Eric
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And the response:
On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 11:37 PM, Tom <zhourenli@goldenmotor.com> wrote:
Hello Eric
Our motor is DC brushless motor,not the AC motor.
So you test as the suggestion of Bike Mad on our forum is wrong.
I think if your motor can run,there is no problem.
Best Regards
Tom
my response:
Tom:
I have been trying to get this motor to run for months.
Why would unplugging only one wire slow it down.
Something is VERY WRONG HERE and Golden Motor needs to fix it!
--Eric
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...I took the wheel apart again and disconnected each phase wire from the 8 small enamel wires...
the 8 wires are 0.56mm strands of same conductor (actually I thought GM uses 10 strands...). The slots are too narrow to use a single thick wire. The motor is star connected. If you want to learn more about the different winding possibilities of such motors check out e.g. http://powercroco.de/ [german only] . If you want to learn more about timing of hall signal and phase voltages check out e.g. http://www.atmel.com/dyn/resources/prod_documents/doc8138.pdf (or other atmel controllers)
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Thanks for the references!
I may have to learn German before I can ride my bike!
If the motor is star-connected where is the place where they all come together?
There are three bundles of 8 wires each.
I am thinking I should split these out and group them in groups of 4 and then connect 6 wires so I can experiment with how they are tied together, but I won't be able to do this if it is star connected as I won't be able to put an ohm meter across to tell which is which as they will all be connected together.
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I not getting ANYTHING out of GM.
I am thinking of taking it apart again and separating out all 24 small enamel wires to figure out which go where.
If it is a delta winding, I should be able to identify 3 separate coils with an ohm meter.
Then I can switch the direction of the Blue-Green pairs.
But would this do anything?
Are both FETs doing the same thing or is one high while the other is low?
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...If the motor is star-connected where is the place where they all come together?
One end of each phase winding (A, B and C) is soldered to the phase wires the other ends are soldered together without any further connection and insulated in a sheath. The motor has 46P51S (poles and slots) - the calculator from powercroco suggests the following winding pattern:
AaABbBbcCcaAabBbBCcCAaAabBbcCcaAaABbBCcCcaAabBbcCcC
(letters are teeth, capital = clockwise winding). Thus each phase conductor is wrapped around 17 teeth. I re-checked my HBS48/1000W - it has 9 strands for each of the 3 conductors (yours might have only 8 for less power?). It's very unlikely that the bundled strands have been mixed up. The induced voltage test you made indicates equal and (probably) correct windings.
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...I should split these out and group them in groups of 4 and then connect 6 wires so I can experiment with how they are tied together...
I tried to figure out the switching pattern to be expected on the 3 phases e.g. Y-G. It doesn't match what you measured, probably my patterns are wrong (requires a few more thoughts). The 3 phases shown on the oscilloscope look pretty much the same except the last which seems to have quite an asymmetric timing. The timing is given by the hall sensors (sensitivity, threshold and position). I don't know if this might be critical or if it well within the tolerances.
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I have posted a video of the test of my 48V Golden Motor Hub and 20" wheel.
Please watch it and post any ideas it gives you.
Thanks!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKRYu4V5A5U
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Ok Ive watched the video over a few times ???
Its a bit like that flash simulation. You need to stare at it a while.
I get the tests now and the remapping does indictate the controller is working as the condition still apears on the same wire of the motor. and not the controller.
Yes I do believe the phase wires are not correct. Your test can only indicate just this IMHO. It would be good if you fixed this for us to watch and learn but do you really feel like doing this?
If GM agreed at this point the wheel isnt right warranty should be offered. Upon further testing GM should also refund shipping expenses too.
However I believe this is between you and GM reps now.
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Both you and Bike Mad have concluded that something is wrong with my wheel.
I am having ZERO luck engaging TOM at Golden Motor.
I would kind of like to fix it myself out of spite at this point. But do not really know what could be wrong.
You mentioned magnets installed wrong, Bike Mad mentioned miss-wound coils--maybe someone got the uppercase-lowercase clockwise--anticlockwise distinctions wrong?
One difference between you and Bike Mad is that you think its star wound and he thinks it is delta.
I did not see a place with three sets of wires coming together.
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Na I don't think the magnets are wrong more chance the phase wires are pair up wrong. You can test the magnets by running another magnet around the outside of the magnet rim, its better to do when apart though. One should attract and the next repels.
Shipping this stuff back and forth cost too much IMO worth more then 2 new hubs, there must be something GM can do to make it right.
I guess the tech support is Tom and the forums here. The members have always been good here at helping.
For the price when you get a good hub its a very good deal.
One guy rewound his whole GM hub on the sphere and this wasnt DOA either. It made an interesting thread. He said they don't pay GM enough to build these motors and I tend to agree when you look at whats in them, these are quality hubs when they work.
I think GM should raise the price and get some QC happening if only these things more rarley happen it would be worth paying a Chinese worker to test them properly before they send them.
Sit tight man and don't worry. I know youve been messing around with this for a while, Its the ode of the ebiker really.
I think GM will probably send you out a new hub in the end. Sending back the old one doesnt seem worth it.
Try remain diplomatic for the rest of this and see how it goes. Yao does come across reasonable here.
I wish I could do more. I do have a HBs appart here now and just installed new halls in it.
If you need some more info I'd be happy to offer it before I put this sucker back together.
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...I did not see a place with three sets of wires coming together.
I don't have a photo of the HBS star point at hand, but of the MiniMotor (which I took) and the MP (which is from the web) where the starpoint is in the sheath to the right.