GoldenMotor.com Forum
General Category => Magic Pie & Smart Pie Discussions => Topic started by: Andrew on November 18, 2010, 08:21:46 PM
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I thought I’d post this review in the PIE discussion section, but please feel free to move to the review area.
Warning, long post, please feel free to scroll down for some sexy (over 18 only) photos of my pride n joy. ;D
Magic Pie versus Complete Novice (A Long Winded U.K Review)
Ok, I’ve finally got my Golden Motor Magic Pie Kit up and running so I thought I would post up a thread on my overall experience from purchasing to receipt to build. I will also give my first impressions of functions, features and performance.
First, a bit about myself. I am a Teacher of Creative Arts educating children and young adults. I predominantly teach 16 to 18 year olds at advanced level Art and Design preparing them for University and Higher Education.
This is my first conversion kit, in fact it’s my first ever experience with an electric bike. I have little if any skill or knowledge of electronics and have a school boy understanding of electricity. In fact I’m not sure what I’ve got myself into.
Reasons for wanting and needing an E-bike.
1. I’m trying to get more active.
2. I live within E-bike commuting distance to my work place.
3. The price of Petrol. - I have another less environmentally friendly hobby which comes in the form of a heavily modified 353bhp/385ftlbs of torque light weight Subaru Impreza WRX STI Spec C, imported from Japan, which I use on track when ever I get the chance. By the way this car does 18mpg on road and about 9mpg on track and runs on super unleaded 99ron fuel. So as you can see I’m trying to off set this guilty pleasure and save a bit of money on daily commutes.
4. Finally, I usually dive head first into things in order to learn new skills and knowledge. I walked into this whole thing with eyes wide shut! I’m a bit of a ‘buy now research later’ kind of guy.
The bike being converted is a specialized Stump jumper, an extravagant gift to myself whilst out in Colorado a few years ago, the bike has hardly seen any use in the last couple of years so I could find no better way to ‘bring it back to life’ than by Frankensteining it with a bit of electricity. Yeah!
The bike before the conversion.
(http://www.arhservices.co.uk/apaclark/Picture005.jpg)
Purchasing
All in all it took 16 days for the kit to arrive on my doorstep in the UK from the date I made the payment on GM’s website. I inadvertently made the purchase at the beginning of a Chinese national holiday. The total time the Kit was in transit between China and my doorstep was only 6 days.
Tom at GM
Tom kept me in the picture over the above mentioned period supplying me first with an EMS tracking number and then (on request) with a TNT tracking number when this company took charge of my parcel. Tom was also on the side of the customer when valuing the kit for customs charges ;-)
Receiving the parcel
The kit was well packed and everything ordered was present. However, when removing the Magic Pie wheel there was a 3 inch tear in the wheel rim. How this could have been overlooked during manufacture or when the rim was spoked was quite unnerving. It was at this point that I began wondering whether I should have paid a large premium and purchased from a UK distributor.
I contacted Tom at GM who was quick to reply offering to send a new wheel rim.
Thankfully due to help on this forum I was able to contact a UK company who use GM parts for electric wheel chair assemblies. They some what surprisingly supplied me with a replacement rim free of charge. ?
Building the kit.
The kit was easy to assemble if using patience and the right tools. The mechanical parts are a straight forward swap over and the electrical parts are well coloured and labelled. However, as I was having to get the wheel rim re-spoked and being a complete novice with electronics I handed over my bike and the kit to a local E-Bike retailer, electrical engineer and enthusiast ‘Jeff’ at www.fullchargeahead.com/ . It was here that my bike was fully set-up with detailed attention given to cable location and even more importantly the secure fitment of the rear Magic Pie axle into very shallow rear dropouts that were designed for quick release spindles. This was resolved by having two bespoke washers made that sat in and filled the opening of the dropout disallowing axle movement. I hope to add a torque arm too but the one I’ve bought needs filing out to fit the big GM threaded axle.
Functions and features
With a total of three handle bar buttons supplied with the kit there are plenty of wiring options, although I would like to fit a hidden switch to enable me to limit the speed and output of the motor if ever caught in a sticky situation.
1. Buttons. The only button I’m currently using is for cruise control. I would like to have an ignition button and hope to use the red button on the throttle body.
2. Regenerative Braking. Set at 40% it’s gentle, it does its job without being intrusive or abrupt but I am planning on fitting hydraulic disc brakes as I like my brakes sharp and sensitive, whether I do away with regen all together or maybe be use a button to activate it I’m not sure.
3. Cruise Control. Much more useful than I thought it was going to be. I will use this continuously whilst riding.
Performance
Full Set-up…….
26” magic Pie Rear wheel kit
48v 12ah Golden Motor battery
Currently running controller on 48v and 40% regenerative braking.
GPS with Tom Tom Sat Nav (no pedalling) = 22-24mph on flat road with slight tail wind
17mph with slight head wind
27mph going down hill
15mph going up hill
My weight = 85 -90 kg’s
Bike weight 10kg’s
Kit weight 13 kg’s approx
The above speeds were recorded with a standard GM 48v 12ah Lithium Manganese Battery with the controller set to 48 volts.
1. Take-off. Very smooth on take-off from a standing start with throttle only although the motor is slow to wind up. There is no crazy initial acceleration. The plus side, the front end of my bike which is very light does not try and leave the ground. The minus side, I would like a swift takeoff for busy junctions and for out launching the Lycra bike riders :D . The take off may change a bit if I change the controller voltage to 24, but that is next on the list to test.
2. Hill climbing. Very impressive when already at speed, but the motor struggles to maintain momentum if a ‘run up to the hill’ is not possible.
3. Motor Noise. I was dreading how loud the motor would be, but once you are up and running it’s fine. On take off it’s slightly louder but overall it’s not at all loud, in fact the word loud should not be in this statement, it’s quiet, but not silent, just reminiscent of a distant milk float. It has turned a few heads when out and about but I cannot hear it myself when up to speed.
4. Motor size. It is hard to hide the size of it, a GM HBS motor would have been more discreet and part of my initial plan was for discreetness. So if you do add up the motors sound with the size then maybe there are other similarly powered motors out there which are quieter and smaller.
Overall Verdict
It’s Fantastic!
It’s not as fast as advertised but it’s fast enough for a push bike and it’s great to be able to still pedal without having to make too much effort. I’ve also been pleasantly surprised by how easy it is to cycle the bike with no motor assistance. There is drag and the take off is an effort but once you’ve got momentum it’s fine to ride as a normal bike.
The only big design issue I have with DIY e-bikes is that weight distribution and centre of gravity are not good. These issues really need solving on a manufacturing design scale. For instance, having a battery pack within the frame nice and neat would solve both of the above problems. I want a bike that is neat and tidy and the PIE with an internal controller is certainly forward thinking in this design area but there is still more to solve.
Regrets…
1. I wish now that I purchased the external controller, or even gone for a different higher amp controller. As this would have given me more future options and would make it much easier to modify a kit for more power or to replace the controller unit.
2. Should have I bought the kit from a UK distributor and paid over £150.00 GBP extra for a UK warranty? I will answer that question if something goes wrong with the kit in the next 12 months ;-)
3. Should I have gone for a 1000w HBS kit? Hmmm?
Would I recommend this for a starter kit? Most definitely, it makes cycling 100% fun without any of the draw backs and it makes commuting pleasurable.
Final costs
DIY kit including Battery and airmail delivery = £620 GBP/ $960 USD (Sept-28-2010)
TNT Customs charges = £30.00 GBP
Total set-up including mechanical and electrical locating, new gear lever shifters, gear adjustment, bespoke fabricated washers, repoking of Golden Motor wheel, testing of kit and delivery = £150.00GBP
There were a couple of other small costs such as frame bag and cassette.
Anyway, here’s the bit you’ve been scrolling down to find……………….
THE PHOTOS!
(http://www.arhservices.co.uk/apaclark/DSCF1722.jpg)
(http://www.arhservices.co.uk/apaclark/DSCF1716.jpg)
(http://www.arhservices.co.uk/apaclark/DSCF1721.jpg)
(http://www.arhservices.co.uk/apaclark/DSCF1717.jpg)
(http://www.arhservices.co.uk/apaclark/DSCF1719.jpg)
(http://www.arhservices.co.uk/apaclark/DSCF1720.jpg)
(http://www.arhservices.co.uk/apaclark/DSCF1723.jpg)
My bespoke battery cover
(http://www.arhservices.co.uk/apaclark/DSCF1725.jpg)
Pie Hidder
(http://www.arhservices.co.uk/apaclark/DSCF1726.jpg)
(http://www.arhservices.co.uk/apaclark/DSCF1727.jpg)
Thanks for looking
Andrew :)
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Top Notch Review Andrew!
Thank you for sharing your experience.
Gary
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Andrew ripper review mate !!!
Your ride is stealthy and looks to be a sneaky beast. Have fun with your carbon offsetting champ ;)
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Thanks, ;D The bike and review has been a long time coming. Now my better half wants in on the action so I may be soon contacting you Gary to try and strike a deal ;)
Andrew
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Good review and sweet ride. Very nice hard tail. Good choice of bike style for conversion the hardtails are.
Do you have the program cable, get the software up and click get config and post what comes up.
We may be able to get you much better performance on the hills without modding anything other than the software. I can get 22+mph towing stuff up hills and close to 27mph on flats, my motor only gets warm a little..
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ok. the controller software is set to 48v and is on max 50A current and 30 cont. I was going to change the voltage to 24 this weekend to see if it will make any difference. keeping an eye on motor temps of course.. I will post the present setup on saturday :)
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ok. the controller software is set to 48v and is on max 50A current and 30 cont. I was going to change the voltage to 24 this weekend to see if it will make any difference. keeping an eye on motor temps of course.. I will post the present setup on saturday :)
Your performance behaves more like 18A max and 12A cont but even still this would please a new commer.
I must compliment you on the research you did around before you recieved your kit, has this made your bike building easier and better?
Be sure to know your battery limits too if you bypass your contoller LVC setting with the 24v setting. The BMS should cut out before cell damage anyways. Its prolly best not not discharge your pack below 75% capacity if you can manage this as the battery will live longer and be easier to charge and keep in good balance.
Dont push the pack too hard before it cycles in, maybe leave the bike this 48v setting for 2 weeks to break the battery in before you push the systems performance.
You may notice better speed up hills at the 24v setting, but not much more on take offs. You really have to test the bike out with the 26" wheel to notice the performance enhancement of the 24v setting. But it is a considerable improvement but just doesnt stick out so obvious.
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Hmm I dunno I have to contest there Les!
Have no clue why we get different performance from the settings changes...
For example = my rear wheel was always a bit 'dull' and when I replaced the internal controller is now insane.
Changing from 48v to 24v for me, single or dual drive the difference was like WOW
I notice if anything a slightly less top speed (48v seemed to 'wind' out more)
Take off 100% better than 48v
Hills the same
If I take off hard in a slippy surface the front wheel spins up crazy and the back fishtails a bit while taking off, fun stuff!!!
Wheel spin on front even leaning forward anytime on takeoff, any road surface haha I think I need better tyres
I haven't changed back lol
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Yeah the 20" wheel would make a difference at 0kph take offs..
Even with a shunt mod at 50 amps the 26" wheel and 6 fets take offs controller are not wheel spin flip the bike stuff.
I get a lot of mid to high rpm torque. It goes like a train up hills at full throttle.
At 50 amps max the take offs are more than acceptable and, at 30 amps max I can sit at the lights and keep up with a sluggish vehicle up to 37kph.
And before the mod and 24v setting It was like shiss. I notice since the shunt mod, that the 24v setting is way less effective and prolly no reason top uise it. I set mine back to 48v.
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check - and mate........ :D
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No-no not checkmate.
The two wheel sizes operate differently and perform different too. Your wheel has to wind up this RPM to get KPH and at top speed this could show where my pie has great response.
And over long distances the higher RPM of the smaller wheel can take away from the pack. I can get 60+km range from a 15ah pack. I did an efficiency test and I used 50 watts for 5kms. This can equate to 78km range from my 780 watt pack, the fact I only use 33% of my capacity, this can add to the life expectancy to my 1000 cycle lifpo.
I am hopinmg this pack lives over 3 years. If I was to add my 20ah pack to the bike Id have 182km range at this 10wh per KM.
If I take it carefull on the throttle I could do these distances as far as the CA is concerned (regen).
And tyre and bearing wear, freewheel resistance is less on the larger wheels per meter. With no regen I can roll over 100 meters and in most cases momntum is a more efficient means of storing energy than electrical conversion.
The motor seems to be cogging way less than when it was new.
Ande the last thing is bike compatability. Most MTB can take a 26" pie. Youre skilled and lucky to pull off a BMX dual pie like that.
And now we face the dual vs single competition. I will have a dual pies very soon, except it will be on two bikes not one.
I will put a picture up side by side a single bike with a dual pie and "my two single Pies" >:( and you will see my Monkey friend, soon enough.. :P
So its not an open and shut case when it comes to wheel size or $ value vs dual and single machines.
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You two are mad when you both get going ::) :D :D
Who would have thought that so many small factors would make such big differences.
Les, thanks for the heads up on battery maintenence. I will let the battery 'wear in' a bit longer before changing the voltage.
Excuse my lack of understanding but what is meant by 'the motors cogging' and how does it effect motor performance and bike pedalling.??? :-\
Andrew :)
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I understand that the max and cont. Currents are much more limited than the controller suggests.
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Your only option is to click that 24v button and maybe take he max and cont down to 30AM 20AC and raise it slowly 5 amps at a time until you think your power is better.-
And you weigh 10kg more than me, but I feel I can go 23mph up hills with a trailer with 10kg of milk in the back it evens out. Its just 17mph is slow.
Hey make sure your tires are pumped hard too. This can give you much more range and better speed performances.
If youre going 25mph up hills this maybe too much. From my experiences a good speed up hills for the internal controllers on the 26" wheel is between 21 and 23mph. 25mph up up hills is crazy amps and the motor does get a lot more warm.
My max on flats with an updraft wind is (43kph) 27 mph and down hills (46kph) 28.5 mph.
Its going to be hard to get your wheel safely up to speed without a watt meter. But you can do it.
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You two are mad when you both get going ::) :D :D
Who would have thought that so many small factors would make such big differences.
Les, thanks for the heads up on battery maintenence. I will let the battery 'wear in' a bit longer before changing the voltage.
Excuse my lack of understanding but what is meant by 'the motors cogging' and how does it effect motor performance and bike pedalling.??? :-\
Andrew :)
Cogging is motor resistance when youre rolling with no electric assist. The MP seems to lose a little stiffness after a while of use. When you release the throttle low cogging makes the bike more efficient in using the momentum stored.
With a 26" wheel it has to spin less than a 20" wheel for the same KM traveled and a larger wheel diameter has a stronger torque over this cogging resistance so any resistance has less RPM to encounter on the larger wheels.
Another heads up is keep that new pack on the charger for a few days so all the cells are balanced. Everything works so much snappier when the cells all have an even capacity of charge and you will ensure you don't LVC the new pack in the first week.
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You two are mad when you both get going ::) :D :D
Andrew :)
Yeah you have to watch those cheeky Monkeys, they can misbehave if you let them free on the net.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1AZn5nWIj_g (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1AZn5nWIj_g)
When the tiger hungers to munch on Monkey meat, there aint much the hungry tiger can do, Cheeky Monkey persona , Hmmm. What to do? The mind boggles?
Can you relate to this video Mr M Magic? 8)
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ok, I now understand cogging and torque and momentum of differing size wheels - it all makes sense :)
I did a 4 hour charge when the battery arrived. I then did a 10 hour charge before really using the battery. Then did a quick first run on the bike only for about 5 miles and then did a 12 hour charge. Should I just now do top up charges or should I give any more long charges? in total i've done no more than 10 miles on the battery since the bike has been built.
The performance figures in my review were first impressions on a 2 mile quick ride. 17 mph may have been conservative. I've just been out again and got 19mph w/slight head wind and then 26mph with slight tail wind. Obviously conditions play there part.
By the way, my rear tyre is 40psi and the front has a little less as there is less weight at about 35psi.
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Now my better half wants in on the action
I know that feeling! My wife and both me kids and most of my friends all have bikes as well. Group rides are alot of fun!
Gary
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Yep Gary, i think these bikes definately open up new horizons. I'm hoping to get my other half on my bike today for the first time and then i'm sure she will be hooked.
Whilst you are there Gary,, Would it be easy to connect up a GM frog battery with a GM HBS motor kit? and is there much difference between 250watt mini motors and 500 watt motors?
Andrew :)
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ok, I now understand cogging and torque and momentum of differing size wheels - it all makes sense :)
I did a 4 hour charge when the battery arrived. I then did a 10 hour charge before really using the battery. Then did a quick first run on the bike only for about 5 miles and then did a 12 hour charge. Should I just now do top up charges or should I give any more long charges? in total i've done no more than 10 miles on the battery since the bike has been built.
The performance figures in my review were first impressions on a 2 mile quick ride. 17 mph may have been conservative. I've just been out again and got 19mph w/slight head wind and then 26mph with slight tail wind. Obviously conditions play there part.
By the way, my rear tyre is 40psi and the front has a little less as there is less weight at about 35psi.
Your battery should be well balanced. Just remember that when the charge light indicates full battery this is only the end of what they call bulk mode charge. It can take some time to balance the pack after the charge light indicates charge complete..
If you drain the battery down low you really need a longer balance charge. You can leave it on the charger all night in these cases..
My Luv, she rides the ebikes all the time. Takes the day off and rides around. With a trailer its awesome. No parking troubles, park right up at the mall doors. Empty trolly into trailer and off she goes to the next stop all over this town. If its not raining, she actually feels empathy for the people struggling with trollies on bumpy hilly rough road tar in the parking lots. If it is raining, its them feeling sorry for me soaking in a wet rain coat like today.
Riding around the town, OMG I zig zag around cars through the grid locked roads and road rage gets perpetuated by people stuck in their cars at me, ha. FU the finger and off into the distance I go.
I ride past the court house and all the busted drink drivers are looking at me with daggers shooting from there eyes..
I saw an ebike years ago, I chased him down and asked him where to get this bike from. We bought three of them the next week. I see a good thing, I don't abuse it, I find it, build or buy it, it and use it. Why cant other be like Smeeeee.
BTW I do 45psi in both front and back tires. 40 psi is ok, 35 is too soft , 50 is too much for standard inner tubes IMO.
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ok, i've been told!!
I will pump the tyres but to be honest I like a bit of cushioning in the front tyre because the roads where I live are made up of several decades of filled in pot holes, so the roads are filled in patches more than they are actual original laid tarmac.
i've used the bike today for about 8 miles and I will charge it over night. I haven't recorded any new performance figures as today i've tried aligning a GPS with a chinese wireless bike computer which so far has proved to be completely pants, but i suppose thats what you get for spending a few pounds on chinese ebay sellers.
My better half had go on my bike today and was very impressed. I just have to twist her arm enough to agree to spending the money on another kit.
Rgds
Andrew. Please keep the replies, heads up, and tips coming. :)
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Andrew have you tried 24V setting yetttttttttttt? :D
Les man!! With your mouth open so big, you better remember that we monkeys are known to have superior fecal throwing accuracy abilities!! hehe
I love those monkeys but they are crazy!! When I was in Venezuela, I saw them first hand in the amazons and my guide who was a native indian grabbed me and told me to run! Haha so we did. Later he said that you keep well away from those monkeys because they usually are in family packs and will trick you some how and bash you to steal food and your belongings lol
Ok back to the topic... Yes having the smaller wheel would be a difference in top speed - but I'm pretty sure the higher RPM only applies to the 16" wheel.
Still haven't managed to get my 16" wheel powered back up but I know there is a member or 2 on here with one going.
nd Les - what are you saying?? You will have a dual drive Magic Pie - AND 2 x single drive??? wattttttttttt
Man you should connect them altogether and go on a big family ride and see what performance and range you get !!!! hehe
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monkey,, I haven't tried 24v setting yet, but I think I will tomorrow because i'm an impatient b@stard. I will change the max and continous amp settings too.
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Can't wait to write up an article about the whole thing. :)
Nice one Andrew!
I've just managed to find enough time to sit and read your complete review without any other distractions whatsoever, and I must say that you've made an excellent job of both the review and the bike, and the end result was certainly worth the wait.
Any chance you can post some close up pictures of those bespoke washers for the dropouts?
I wish now that I purchased the external controller, or even gone for a different higher amp controller. As this would have given me more future options and would make it much easier to modify a kit for more power or to replace the controller unit.
My better half had go on my bike today and was very impressed. I just have to twist her arm enough to agree to spending the money on another kit.
There appears to be an obvious solution here, when you've managed to twist her arm enough, simply buy a rear external Pie kit and swap it over with yours, then you can refit your internal one onto the better half's bike instead!
I'm sure she would appreciate the neater (and more secure) installation of the internal controller.
Problem solved. ;D
Alan
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here's a quick pic of current set-up. Any ideas? I understand that the max and cont. Currents are much more limited than the controller suggests.
Andrew,
If you hold down the "Alt" key while you hit the "Print Screen" button it saves a screenshot of just the active window rather than the whole desktop (like your camera shot).
You can then paste (Ctrl + V) this into Paint (usually found at Start/All programs/Accessories/Paint on XP) and save as a .JPG file for uploading to Photobucket etc. or simply attach it directly to the post by clicking on Additional Options and then the "Choose File" button. Browse to where you saved the file and then click the "Open" button to select, before posting.
Please Note: Attached images are not displayed on the "Preview" screen and will not be visible to "Guests" on the forum, but all members who are logged on will be able to see them.
I hope this will be of help to other members too.
Alan
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Thanks Alan I tried print screening the desk top image but could not paste and save the jpg image. So after losing my temper I just took a camera shot instead(as you can see). Thanks for the tuition, I was wondering yesterday how people manage to capture just the window and not the whole screen, now I know ;D
As for the washers all I can do is take a photo from under the bike pointing up to the washer, now the the rear wheel is all centred and the wires located and cabled tied etc I really don't want to remove it to get the washers off. I will take a photo today and post it later.
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Andrew have you tried 24V setting yetttttttttttt? :D
Les man!! With your mouth open so big,
:o :o :o :o
No its just two single MPies are better, obviously WAY better than a single dual pie. :P And no comment on my range abilities?
You started the Magic Pie chess game with the check and mate post.
I knew I would get an amazon Monkey story if I showed you that tiger Monkey clip. Most entertaining.
Fancy that! Being mugged and bashed in the jungle by a family of monkeys.
And now Im down a working cycle analyst the only thing I throw at these forums with accuracy would be worth Monkey dung flung.
Now the advantages of the 20" is the great take off performance and efficiency off road would be awesome compared to a road MTB. And regen at the higher RPM would be better on the 20".
My point was to show the wheel sizes have different qualities that deliver different performances.
I could use a 20" for my trips as the 20" prolly does what I want in many aspects of my requirements.
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It's an axle washer with the same shape hole as the axle itself( like the ones that come with the kit) but it has had a piece welded on which sits in the dropout gap and acts like wedge by filling the gap.
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It's an axle washer with the same shape hole as the axle itself( like the ones that come with the kit) but it has had a piece welded on which sits in the dropout gap and acts like wedge by filling the gap.
Torque washer.
And suspension seat post would help with your weight there. Make it more cushy both on you and wheel.
Hint hint!
The gals love a big seat with gel padding and suspension seat pole attatched to the seat.
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i've now tried changing amp and voltage settings today and it made no difference what so ever to performance. No change in torque, speed or acceleration. the motor stayed stone cold throughout. I tried 24v with amps at 20cont and 30 max, and then 24v with 30c 50 max.
I think Alans idea of passing the pie wheel to my other half as a gesture of good will, and then buying a pie wheel with and external or even a higher amp controller might be on the cards over the coming months ;)
for instance, would a 35 amp infineon controller be ok with a 48v 12ah GM battery? and would it free up more power?
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You can add some solder to the shunt on the internal controller.
Just make sure its well soldered and shorten the shunt with solder to the PCB.
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No its just two single MPies are better, obviously WAY better than a single dual pie. :P And no comment on my range abilities?
I can comment on range. Unfortunatly not with any exact numbers though. When I switch from the rear HBS 48v1000 to a rear Magic Pie I noticed I was arriving at work with more juice in the batteries left then I had before. I attribute this to the larger diameter motor with more magnets equals more power on my uphill ride to work. Then when I added the second Magic Pie to the front I had even more power left over. This I hear from others is due to motor effeciencies (including yourself). Two motors equals less work in the lower rpm range when your sucking up the jouice. I may still add a motor to the trailor some day. Alan's recent paint shop edit of my bike with the trailor motorized looks appealing. If I go with a 3rd motor I guess Ill go further yet!
Gary
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would a 35 amp infineon controller be ok with a 48v 12ah GM battery? and would it free up more power?
The GM 12Ah batteries are rated for a Max Discharge Current of 35A and 20A Max Continuous, but I think other forum members have opted for the 40Amp version which can also be modified to run on 60 or 72 volt packs if required:
(http://www.ebikes.ca/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/d33f8bafbb033e6f66b003faca9e0ee7/c/3/c3640-nc_iso.jpg) (http://ebikes.ca/store/store_controllers.php)
Those fabricated torque washers should be OK as long as the axle nuts are kept nice and tight, but I would strongly recommend you fit a decent torque arm as well, just to play safe.
Alan
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Hey Andrew
Unfortunately you won't really 'unlock' any more power from your GM battery. You may see a performance difference from using the infineon controller.
Also - was going to ask > you mentioned that you were getting NO difference in changing settings? That's a bit odd, hey maybe check you are doing this:
1. Disconnect power cable to motor
2. Plug in USB cable to 8-pin connector
3. Start PI-200 Software
4. Click 'connect' >> Should say 'connect success' on the bottom left of the window
5. Change some settings around like set the regen to 0%. DONT CLICK SAVE YET
5. Click 'get config' >> check if the regen amount went back to where it was. This will tell you it is reading from the wheel.
6. Change your settings - voltage/current settings etc.
7. Click 'store/save' - should say 'load success' on the bottom left of your screen
8. Click 'disconnect' - should say 'disconnect' success
If you are already doing that and you are not seeing any difference, then try setting your constant amps to 2 and your MAX amps to 5 and you should have a pretty sluggish motor... Do that to see if it's working, I think its a bit weird to experience NO difference on changing the settings
Is your regen changing??
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Gary it depends on your weight and riding conditions. And the main sign of wasted juice is heat and noise and maybe noise thats inaudible.
When you really load an MP you hear it make a swobble sound. Think of the power a speaker uses to make noise, but make that an inefficient speaker, as far as a motor compares to a speaker.
Now we consider heat. Any energy that is "not" transformed into forward movement is wasted watts, and heat is a symtom that can also create a cause for inefficiency.
Any motor/s dual or not, make heat, and you start losing the efficiency game.
Audible noise is also a sign thatr heat is being generated. So if in the config one was to try settings that decrease the noise of the motor they will start seeing increases in range and lower watt hour cycles.
That said you can get these amazing range results just using the throttle. Waste of power can be a choice thing. Have the power to cut sick or just stroll along not pushing much current any where past the MF radius of the motor coils.
At last is, what motor and setting are best for the riders terrain.
The gearless as I have seen can go incredible distances in the right conditions. My hills are not exccessive and I have many long flats in out by the cane fields that surround my town. This is where some may not see how bloody good a 26" or even a 700c wheel with speed restiction can be when it comes to range.
Another MP rider experiences MP sweetnes using the sleek dynamics of a low ride recumbent getting 7.7 WH/km (12.6 wh/mi) I get at reasonable speeds and with much self control 10WH/'km 16.4 WH/mi.
The dual Pie would be ok in some circumstances efficiency wise. If it was decrease heat created on hills sure, and the ability to capture more regen would be a blast.
To do the effieciency test, limit your motor speed. Run regen off a seperate switch at 100% on a slower bike. Set all your software below what you do max so no shunt is taking a load. And throttle like a heavy loaded electric train. Sloooooooowly. Find a way to use your brakes as little ,or not at all, by looking ahead and plotting a course with use of minimal brakes. Use regen when ever appropriate.
Such strategies could be consdidered conservative and green in concept. I have a much easier time running the bike off my solar panels being all tight with efficiency.
I guess you get the point.
But Andrew.
Look at it this way. Your motor. Try take it easy on the pack and get it nice and ripe. Capacity will increase over the next three weeks up to 25% the more you cycle the pack up.
Then set your setting to low but acceptable, just so you notice a decrease in power to show the software is in conrtrol of your current flow,
Go for a good long easy ride, and you be blown out by how far your 12ah LI pack will take you.
Enjoy the bike how it is as you don't need to be the rocket on the forums. Take the time to build the rest of the bike up for higher performance.
Even a few weeks riding and getting bto know your areas like pot holes in the bike tracks that are killers and stuff.
Test the spokes out with lower power first.
It's great to move up in power if you really need it. And I think limited at first is a good move by GM.
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Please don't get me wrong i'm very happy with the PIE. I will try again with the controller software and try changing regen to test. I did exactly as in your above instructions apart from maybe not clicking 'disconnect' - I can't remember :-\. I will try tomorrow after work.
Could I ask what electrical characteristics should take place by lowering the voltage?
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Please don't get me wrong i'm very happy with the PIE. I will try again with the controller software and try changing regen to test. I did exactly as in your above instructions apart from maybe not clicking 'disconnect' - I can't remember :-\. I will try tomorrow after work.
Could I ask what electrical characteristics should take place by lowering the voltage?
There is an old tale, a myth that the 24v setting causes the PWM (pulse width modulation) frequency to change in the controller to compensate for the lower voltage packs. The current could use a boost in a real 24v system..
When current goes to the motor it is chopped up into pulses, on, off, on, off, and this has an advantageous effect of lowering the effect of resistance. When you increase throttle the pwm pulses get wider leaving less off state than on and this effects the motor speed.
If you were to use resistive means to limit the motor speed this would use much more power just to go slow as one is using heat to restrict motor speed.
So when you throttle the voltage stays the same and only pulse length controlls the bike speed..
So if chopping the motor power up into pieces lowers the effect of resistance, just maybe, changing the speed of the pulses to faster has the effect of lowering the effect of resistance further for lower volatge systems.
If you were to set 50 amps at 48v, or 50 amps at 24v the lower voltage effects the max current indicated by ohms law.
R= V/I
Max amps = Volts/resistance
The whole bike has resistance from the middle cell positive terminal of your pack all the way through every part to the motor coil and back to the negative terminal of the middle cell of your pack and in between.
If you were to add this resistance up. or easier take your max amps and divide it by the volts and you will finds the resistance.
say 49v @ 50 amps.
49v/50A = .98 ohms.
So if we plug the .098 ohms into a 24v system and use ohms law.
24v/.98 ohms = 24 amps max.
See the higher voltage alone can increase the max current a motor can sink, leaving the 24v systems stuck at 24 amps MAX even set at 50 amps.
The controller needs a way to balance these differences so it attempts to counter act by means of making the Pwm faster on the 24v setting..
Monkey with the 20" wheel would notice more power on take offs you should experience more power up hills at a higher speed.
As this is only a little trick and not the same as decreasing the resistance to the motor the true RMS power of your motor only changes at certain K. K= rpm per volt..
12 fet~18fet (field effect transistor) controllers have a net lower resistance as the fets in parallel widens the current path to the motor and you should see much less loss of energy due to the volts not dropping over the fet near as much during high load times..
The result of using a 12 fet is the motor needs less RPM to draw more more current, lots of phase events on the smaller controller seem to see less voltage slump over the fets when RPM is higher.
So the 24v setting is not the holy grail on a 26" wheel, as Monkey experiences much lower load on take offs and has higher K than the 26" wheel.
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Hey it's not just me, I've seen a few people comment on this. And Super Gary's wheels are 26/28" ?
I don't think I have as much speed as a bigger wheel... :( I get 40km/h on flats and 45km/h max downhill dual drive... but nearly 40km/h uphill lol so its aight
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Hey it's not just me, I've seen a few people comment on this. And Super Gary's wheels are 26/28" ?
I don't think I have as much speed as a bigger wheel... :( I get 40km/h on flats and 45km/h max downhill dual drive... but nearly 40km/h uphill lol so its aight
Mine are 26 in and I think your going faster then I am! Mine goes 38 pretty steady on the flat. 34-36 uphill and 42-44 downhill
Gary
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Awesome.
I would need to push 1500+ watts continuous to achieve this. MY magic controller on the 26" wheel has problems with this area of performance..
Andrew sorry for the long post but I have managed to explain the acronyms we commonly use here, even if you don’t understand everything I am saying you will still have the chance to learn the terms and talk us Ebikers use here at GM forums..
If I could with the 6 fet internal controller on a 26" wheel do away with this awesome efficiency I get, I would limit my range to say 40kms, and get almost identical performance as the 20" wheel on hills and take offs for the RMS same power wasted. As long as more heat/noise is not created, nothing else matter, which is not really realistic pursuit.
The 20" will always have more torque but Monkeys dual 20" must cog like hell and the 20" wheel would have lots of problems with obtaining the same range a 26" wheel can achieve.
Battery life.
With the 20" wheel, it uses more power over long distances cycling the pack lower each ride..
Battery life is effected by a few things, mainly depth of discharge (DOD) and max current drawn vs C rating..
C rating is based on you ah to current draw. So if you have a 12ah pack and it is rated at 1C it is rated to give 12amps max. At 2C its rated
it will safely give 23amps max and so on.
With the 26" wheel, the range is longer per (WH) watt hour.
I may only use 1 thrid of a pack but I may over shoot my C rating by .5C.
So in one hand I am gentle on my pack where it concerns DOD but am aggressive where it concerns C ratings.
At 1C my pack is rated to have a 1000 cycles, cycle life. At 2C its rated to do 800 cycles. While at 100% DOD it rated to do 1000 cycle life and at 66% dod its rated to do 3000 cycles.
So you take the 66% dod at 3000 cycles and plug 80% at 2C and ?I get 2400 cycles. One very long lasting pack.
The GM batt is rated at 2.5C @ 100% dod at 800 cycles. Which is pretty dammed good for a 12ah pack IMO.
Run it at 50% DOD and you will get 2000 cycles. Run the PIE more efficiently, you get more range per watt and your pack will live longer for the same miles you travel.
Monkets 20" require less C rarting per Newton meter at high load times meter and in this case it he maintains a good pack life too.
Here is a small list of terms and acronyms which some of you already know and some may help you. We need a GM glossary thread. I might start one and everyone can add their bits.
Electrical
R= resistance.
I or A = current
E or V= volts.
W= watts
EM = elecro magnetic
EMF electromagnetic frequency
P= power
Buck converter.= a circuit designed to power an inductor with PWM that can lower volts by raising amps.
Boost conveter.=A circuit designed to power an inductor with PWM that converts amps into a higher volts.
inductance. = easliy explained, The amount of amps that is drawn into an electro magnet (motor) at a set frequency the return result is measured in henrys..
Impedance. The resistance an inductor place into a circuit all inclusive and is measured in ohms.
Battery talk
DOD= depth of discharge.
SOC= state of charge
AH= amp hour
C ratring= Imax/AH
Internal resistance= battery resistance.
LVC= low volatge cut off.
HVC= high voltage cut off.
Series connected cells= battery cells hooked in a manner that raise the voltage of the pack.
Parallel. Battery cells hooked in a manner that raise the current and AH rating of the pack.
EG. The GM 48v 12ah pack has 13s 3P cell configuration. and the 36v 16ah pack battery has a cell config of 10s 4p cells. Yes the 36v pack comes with one cell more than the 48v pack. <<<< correct me if I am wrong.
Bike electric motor talk.
BLDC motor=- brushless direct current motor.
Stator= coils and coil chassis in motor
former= coil electro magnet iron core
S= slots, former for the count.
P= magnet poles
Eg. the MP has a 63S 46p stator. 63 motor coils (slots) and 46 magnet poles (poles)
winding= copper wound around former
MF= magnetic flux (field area volume)
MD= magnetic density (field saturation)
phase wires= thick wire that lead to motor stator coils.
Hall sensor= small IC's that detect magnet pole position glued into the stator formers.
3 phase and single phase= The method used to power the motor. single phase uses two wire and three phase uses three wires.
Newton meter, Nm = One newton metre is equal to the torque resulting from a force of one newton applied perpendicularly to a moment arm which is one metre long. Torque!
Controller talk.
Fets =The component that supplies the power to motor.
PWM= pulse width modulation.
Fet driver- small transistor to drive the mosfet.
Shunt= A high current resistor in the miliohm region for most controllers that will only allow a set amount of current through the circuit. Limits the max power of a controller regardless off software settings in the amps field..
PCB= printed circuit board. The MP internal controller electronics components are soldered onto a good sturdy PCB.
Basic Electronic parts.
capacitor= a device that stores high energy fields. Buffer or filter.
Diode= a device that allows current in one direction and blocks it in the opposite.
Zener diode= a device that works like a diode until a certain voltage is reached the zener breaks down and allows current to pass.
Mosfet. Metal oxide field effect transistor. The component that supplies the power to motor.
Resistor= a device that restricts both current and voltage in a circuit by means of creating heat.
Inductor= Wire wound around magnetic material that converts current and voltage into a magnetic field, can convert amps into volts and volts into amps. A motor is an inductor but transforms volts and amps into momentum.
Pot= variable resistor. eg. a volume knob on an old stereo is a resistor pot.
Linear voltage regulator = One of a few types of IC's that burn volts to achieve a set voltage. The Lm317t is a linear regulator.
Linear current regulator= IC based on the voltage regulator but configured to lower voltage output by burning watts when the set current is reached programmed at the adjust leg to read a voltage drop over output R.
PIC= programmable integrated circuit. Allows an engineer to control many processes at the legs of the ic. cleans a lot of the mess up in a PCB and allow one to design something that need not to be altered on a hardware level.
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Ok now get this.
My MP inductance pole on stator. 540 Uh
My HBS inductance pole on stator 840 uh
The cogging is a sign of transinductance crossfading the stator pole. But at low RPM, this IMO dissipates the transinductance to equal and cancel the cogging effect sum and off the Pie goes like a rocket.
The lack of inductance in the MP at 0 RPM makes the larger wheels slugs off the mark IMO, and truck loads of current for a brief shot woll solve it on the larger wheels. Not to good for the pouch lifepo's, but after the intial surge the Pie can take advantage of lots of volts and be very conservative on the amps to keep good form.
Monkey.
Id place bets that the smaller wheels you got will kick like a donkey.
I honestly think my MP 26" beast is a different breed of donkey and needs to be approached differently than say a HBS. We seem to be treating the Pie like a HBS with the controller regimes we are using.
Things like Gary and you finding out the lower volt setting giving more power has got me thinking about looking for something totally different when getting a controller for the MP.
If only GM sold a 12fet version of the magic controller. Imagine that! 12 fets and a setting at the 24v. Voltage would be comming out hard of the phase wires.
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Alan!
This explains the mystery -0.82 amps on the CA. It happens when I accelerate or pull the brakes.
I turn the wheel very slow and inductance goes through the roof. OMG :o
Not like im seeing with the HBS. ::)
It's It' sa
DC inductance motor? ??? ???
When the transinductance and energy from the motor spinning meets a path to ground RPM turns the stator former into an electromagnet.
OMG how ingeneeeious is that.
8)
Na na muuuch more fun to be has with this MP me thinks.
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Wow man that is a mouthful of info, ok I am somewhat clearer on this now.
Hmmm... so apart from riding higher, and better range to some degree, what benefit would I have to change to bigger wheels then?
What I am 100% on is cruising along on a pair of phat 20's is pretty bling lol
peace out
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Wow! I think i'll have read through the above 6 posts quite a few times. It's good to see some of the commonly used acronyms explained :) as well as BLDC motor parts and components explained. Thanks Les. :)
i had fun today commuting to and from work. I made the 5 mile journey to work in 13 minutes. it takes me 20 minutes in the car. The kids in school were quite impressed with the bike build.
Anyone know what a good torque setting would be on the pie wheel nuts?
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Awesome.
I would need to push 1500+ watts continuous to achieve this. MY magic controller on the 26" wheel has problems with this area of performance..
Andrew sorry for the long post but I have managed to explain the acronyms we commonly use here, even if you don’t understand everything I am saying you will still have the chance to learn the terms and talk us Ebikers use here at GM forums..
If I could with the 6 fet internal controller on a 26" wheel do away with this awesome efficiency I get, I would limit my range to say 40kms, and get almost identical performance as the 20" wheel on hills and take offs for the RMS same power wasted. As long as more heat/noise is not created, nothing else matter, which is not really realistic pursuit.
The 20" will always have more torque but Monkeys dual 20" must cog like hell and the 20" wheel would have lots of problems with obtaining the same range a 26" wheel can achieve.
Battery life.
With the 20" wheel, it uses more power over long distances cycling the pack lower each ride..
Battery life is effected by a few things, mainly depth of discharge (DOD) and max current drawn vs C rating..
C rating is based on you ah to current draw. So if you have a 12ah pack and it is rated at 1C it is rated to give 12amps max. At 2C its rated
it will safely give 23amps max and so on.
With the 26" wheel, the range is longer per (WH) watt hour.
I may only use 1 thrid of a pack but I may over shoot my C rating by .5C.
So in one hand I am gentle on my pack where it concerns DOD but am aggressive where it concerns C ratings.
At 1C my pack is rated to have a 1000 cycles, cycle life. At 2C its rated to do 800 cycles. While at 100% DOD it rated to do 1000 cycle life and at 66% dod its rated to do 3000 cycles.
So you take the 66% dod at 3000 cycles and plug 80% at 2C and ?I get 2400 cycles. One very long lasting pack.
The GM batt is rated at 2.5C @ 100% dod at 800 cycles. Which is pretty dammed good for a 12ah pack IMO.
Run it at 50% DOD and you will get 2000 cycles. Run the PIE more efficiently, you get more range per watt and your pack will live longer for the same miles you travel.
Monkets 20" require less C rarting per Newton meter at high load times meter and in this case it he maintains a good pack life too.
Here is a small list of terms and acronyms which some of you already know and some may help you. We need a GM glossary thread. I might start one and everyone can add their bits.
Electrical
R= resistance.
I or A = current
E or V= volts.
W= watts
EM = elecro magnetic
EMF electromagnetic frequency
P= power
Buck converter.= a circuit designed to power an inductor with PWM that can lower volts by raising amps.
Boost conveter.=A circuit designed to power an inductor with PWM that converts amps into a higher volts.
inductance. = easliy explained, The amount of amps that is drawn into an electro magnet (motor) at a set frequency the return result is measured in henrys..
Impedance. The resistance an inductor place into a circuit all inclusive and is measured in ohms.
Battery talk
DOD= depth of discharge.
SOC= state of charge
AH= amp hour
C ratring= Imax/AH
Internal resistance= battery resistance.
LVC= low volatge cut off.
HVC= high voltage cut off.
Series connected cells= battery cells hooked in a manner that raise the voltage of the pack.
Parallel. Battery cells hooked in a manner that raise the current and AH rating of the pack.
EG. The GM 48v 12ah pack has 13s 3P cell configuration. and the 36v 16ah pack battery has a cell config of 10s 4p cells. Yes the 36v pack comes with one cell more than the 48v pack. <<<< correct me if I am wrong.
Bike electric motor talk.
BLDC motor=- brushless direct current motor.
Stator= coils and coil chassis in motor
former= coil electro magnet iron core
S= slots, former for the count.
P= magnet poles
Eg. the MP has a 63S 46p stator. 63 motor coils (slots) and 46 magnet poles (poles)
winding= copper wound around former
MF= magnetic flux (field area volume)
MD= magnetic density (field saturation)
phase wires= thick wire that lead to motor stator coils.
Hall sensor= small IC's that detect magnet pole position glued into the stator formers.
3 phase and single phase= The method used to power the motor. single phase uses two wire and three phase uses three wires.
Newton meter, Nm = One newton metre is equal to the torque resulting from a force of one newton applied perpendicularly to a moment arm which is one metre long. Torque!
Controller talk.
Fets =The component that supplies the power to motor.
PWM= pulse width modulation.
Fet driver- small transistor to drive the mosfet.
Shunt= A high current resistor in the miliohm region for most controllers that will only allow a set amount of current through the circuit. Limits the max power of a controller regardless off software settings in the amps field..
PCB= printed circuit board. The MP internal controller electronics components are soldered onto a good sturdy PCB.
Basic Electronic parts.
capacitor= a device that stores high energy fields. Buffer or filter.
Diode= a device that allows current in one direction and blocks it in the opposite.
Zener diode= a device that works like a diode until a certain voltage is reached the zener breaks down and allows current to pass.
Mosfet. Metal oxide field effect transistor. The component that supplies the power to motor.
Resistor= a device that restricts both current and voltage in a circuit by means of creating heat.
Inductor= Wire wound around magnetic material that converts current and voltage into a magnetic field, can convert amps into volts and volts into amps. A motor is an inductor but transforms volts and amps into momentum.
Pot= variable resistor. eg. a volume knob on an old stereo is a resistor pot.
Linear voltage regulator = One of a few types of IC's that burn volts to achieve a set voltage. The Lm317t is a linear regulator.
Linear current regulator= IC based on the voltage regulator but configured to lower voltage output by burning watts when the set current is reached programmed at the adjust leg to read a voltage drop over output R.
PIC= programmable integrated circuit. Allows an engineer to control many processes at the legs of the ic. cleans a lot of the mess up in a PCB and allow one to design something that need not to be altered on a hardware level.
Wow! Nice post Leslie, I think my ears popped about halfway through!
Gary
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Whilst you are there Gary,, Would it be easy to connect up a GM frog battery with a GM HBS motor kit? and is there much difference between 250watt mini motors and 500 watt motors?
Andrew :)
Sorry somehow I missed this, must have had to many beer bottles in front of the screen again!
Yes the difference is dramatic. the mini motors are very small and light, the hbs 500w motors are much more bulky and heavy. As you would imagine the 500w motors have alot more power. Some people put a minimotor on the front and back to equal the power of the 500w. One main advantage of this is the ability of the minimotors to freewheel. So coasting or peddling has no resistance. The 500w HBS motors have quite alot of resistence and you could not peddle one far very easily.
Im sure others here can fill your head with stats graphs and numbers, I know more practical knowledge. like how much power a motor has when its trying to pull my fat azz up the street! There is a reason my bike is a Dual Pie Ride!
Gary
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Hi Gary, thanks for replying, I never doubted that you wouldn't get back to me.
Andrew :)
Also, I've tested my software setup and it definately effects the strength of the regen braking when adjusted, so it is working and i'm programing correctly. I've changed the voltage down to 24v again, and will do the 10 mile round trip to work today and will monitor performance the best I can, although I have no real way to monitor wattage and amperes