GoldenMotor.com Forum
General Category => General Discussions => Topic started by: Draggin on May 31, 2007, 05:48:03 PM
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My name is Andre I'm from Ontario Canada. I ebayed my golden motor kit in Feb. and appart from a few loose connections(which I soldered) have had no problems. I'm just going to roll over the 1000km mark. I am exactly 10 miles from work 16.5km. I have done the trip in 27:08@34.2km/hr! I have been having this horrible chirping sound for the last 50km and was wondering if some one might enlighten me as to the fix. The distributor has never heard of this problem.
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The power and sensor leads are held in place with nylon cable ties which can come loose or become debri inside the hub. A magnet could come loose or be misaligned or scraping a high spot. All you can do is have it opened by a qualified technician or DIY. Look for loose stuff and/or debri. Some startup noises can be common due to torque ripple and alloy stator spokes but rare for steel stator spokes. Bearings are self lubicated type but could also be the problem. Again a good machine shop can replace a bearing and maybe tell you first if it is bad.
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its a SPOKE
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Dray It sounds like a spoke. My racer makes a simmilar noise when I push off, but stops very shortly after. This noise is ten times louder. If you lift the wheel by the axle and spin it by hand with the battery unplugged the shock wave goes through your hand. However this may have merrit and I will get the bike shop to check. I will keep you posted
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myelectricbike I think you may be right. I took it apart the first day I had it and found a welding spatter had jammed the rotor. it looked as though the bead may have caused some delamination of the stator. It worked ok for 900km though. I have read on other sights about the hall sensors. They say they cost a buck. It would be nice to have a number or specks on them so that I might try and replace it. I don't think that I would try and return this unit the postage is more than the cost of a new one. When I had it apart I noticed that the end covers have very unusual harmonics. spin it and it rings long after the rotation stops. its like listening to a balloon. there should be no noise but there is. Oh my gosh the water is spinning the wrong way down the drain!
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I think covers are definitely forged alloy so they can disapate heat but also not crack under pressure of the bearings which are probably heated prior to being press fit. Those covers are quit a piece of engineering for such a comparatively inexpensive hub motor beleive it or not. I'm sure the ringing of the covers which is similar to a bell when they pop loose from the rotor or are thumped lightly with the finger is due to the high tension they are under from being forged and from the press fit of the bearings. Torque ripple could also be causing loose stator leaves, etc. to vibrate at audiable frequencies.
One solution that worked for me after a few tie straps came loose was to keep everything inside the hub in place by saturating it with layers of superglue. If you do this make sure you do not accidently glue the rotor to the stator. After some glue in many suspect places all noises became disappeared. My ride is now so quite that early this morning I rode past 2 dogs off the leash before they had time to react. I can also listen to a radio now whereas on my Honda 160 I could not.
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Yeeeeessssss. I finally got her fixed with the help of one of the machinists at work. I stripped her down and checked for continuity to the hall sensors, ok. Then I supperglued the laminations in the stator and sanded smooth. With help I installed new bearings as one of them had spun. What we found was that the axel, when pushed into the hub, had been mushed a bit. I thought that the axel should be centered as seen at the bushings, and had hammered it back to center. At that point in the conversation, my buddy pointed out that the words bearing and hammer should not be used together. The pinging noise was the result of driving the ball into the race of the bearing. The end covers amplified the noise. I rode into work this mornig and rolled over 1000 km. Golden Motors rock!
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LOL...
Hammer ...oil can and bearings... Yeah, one of the first things I noticed was how good the machine work actually was and the tight fit of the bearing races in the covers in addition to the lip around the cover edge that mates and locks the cover to the rotor. When I did the 48 volt controller thing and overheated the motor one of the cover screw heads poped so In addition to the Teflon coverd silver power leads I replace the screws with stainless. Also you can use hex cap screws but I stayed with the 4mm hex heads after a local supplier finally found the box. Being both inexpensive and well made has got me now thinking about all kinds of builds and mods. Glad you were able to find and fix the problem.
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Now. myelectricbike, you are joking when you say quality of the machining, aren't you? I'm kinda glad that the quality is what it is because I would have felt guilty breaking it apart if it was $600. I would still have done it I just would have felt bad. The stainless capscrews is a good idea. After two re and re's mine are neither English nore metric. So after I got all those little tiny wires soldered and shrink wrapped I get this great idea to wash my bike. What an idiot! I should have wiped the speed controller with a damp cloth. Instead I used the bucket and brush and hose. It went about a foot and quit. I really didn't want to remove the battery and speed control. When I pulled the end cover off about half a cup of water came out. So there I am at 12:30 with the blow drier stuck in the speed controller and I leave for work at 5:30. My speed controller now looks like a gob of silicone with wires sticking out. Draggin
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Well of course when I say quality of the machining I have price in the back of my head. Considering the price I'm very happy with the machining and materials. Besides I'm getting use to the idea of buying a pipe wrench or cutter at the local flea market for $7 instead of paying Home Depot $109 for all the fancy machining to do what? ...reveal defects like small cracks in the handle? Hey if the handle of the wrench from HD breaks I need a $559 MIG or TIG welder to glue it back on but if the one from the flea market breaks all I need is my trusty old $99 Lincoln.
Anyway about the controller. Sounds like it still works and your ebike could survide 50m like your watch. If its still working after being on while full of water then that's reeally good news. I would expect it to be permanently damaged. If it was you'd have a good excuse to get the new regenerative controller.
The regen's whole thing, BTW, is efficiency so top powered speed is down to the RPM of max motor efficiency (15-17 versus 19-20) and any extra energy from peddling, breaking or going down hill goes back into the batteries instead of into more speed. You don't get there as fast but you don't have to stay there as long by around 30%.
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myelectricbike, are you sure you don,t know me? I have the $99 lincoln and I just bought the $144 mig from princess auto. The welder and the expansion piece for my minivan exhaust was less than the price of the parts at the garage. You are probably right about my speed controller. You've been right about just about everything else. I think that I have gone through a change in life. At one time I would have had to spend thousands to get my bike to go a little faster or a little further. Now I just want the damned thing to work reliably. Golden has built this thing just about right. It is a hair bigger 500W max. and a hair faster, 32km/hr than what is allowed here in Ontario under the new pilot project.....but don't tell anybody especially the police. I think I would do well to buy two more kits from Smart Bikes Canada than to buy a Crystalight or Bonex. for about the same cash. Do you like my spelling mistakes I sense some brand loyalty here. From what I read on the Cryatalight site the problems that I have encountered are common as they talk about similar ones. There is allot of BS in there too. And thanks for the tip on the super glue It really quietens down the startup growl. I even put a fillet arount the base of the stator and hub spider as it was pressed on with a key. I wiouldn't remove the stator assembly again without a couple of 6202RS bearings in my hand.
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Oh Canada, oh Canada as the tune goes... My underlying impression of Canadians comes from the Red Green Show. Like me, "Duck Tape" should be their middle name. ;D
A $144 MIG or TIG welder sounds pretty interesting. Duralum and Chromalloy are my favorite metallic alloys and if I can't do it with them there is always ABS, PVC and PETE.
Seriously though the Golden is very nice for anyone who prefers the reliability akin to an AK-47 versus an M-16 you simply can not count on when it gets wet.
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Don't forget about Hockey we really love hockey. Why even the girls play. To bad there not allowed to sing that song in schools anymore. It has kind of a catchey tune. Here is another problem I ran into when my ebike was new. I couldn't get the charger to peak. I had charged the battery a few times but no green light. I knew it was finished because the battery was bubbling. The charger got so hot I thought it was going to burn. I put it out in the garage and it worked great. I pulled the cover off the charger but found no problem. I thought it might be a loose connection in the battery box. The conections were ok but I noticed that the fusable link was not welded to the end cover. I thought that has to be it. The fuse worked in the garage because it was cold and the link became short making a contact. In the basement the link became loose and messed with the delta voltage circuit. I happened to have a spare 20A fuse in my box of junk and it has worked great ever since. If anybody else is getting a really hot charger try changing the fuse.
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So I had one day worth of ridding and went for a ride with my neighbour to see his garden. About half a mile down a cow path. The bumps had loosened the axle nuts and the axle spun. There is so much torque in the motor that the slot in the fork in the actually opened up. I pulled the fork off and welded (brazed) a washer on the side of the fork to stiffen it up then cut the slot again. I was surprised that it had enough power to bend the slot in the fork. The doner bike is a twenty year old Raliegh mountain bike. It is a steel frame. Go figgure aye.
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There is a picture somewhere on the Internet I saw about six months ago of damage to a front fork from raising the voltage from 36 to 48 with a 36 volt controller. Apparently the power leads shorted and the Counter EMF turned the motor into a generator/break. Not only did it complete open the hangers but before doing that bent the forks like pretzles. Luck he wasn't riding in trafic. It also tore the motor up - bent the axle I think so be careful when doing mods - they can be expensive as well as dangerous.
BTW - what happend to the wiring?
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When I looked down I knew something was wrong. Of course I had to try the throttle to see what it was. Lifting the front up and spinning the wheel to show my buddy. Worked ok. When I put it down it tugged harder on the wire, then it stopped working. Buddy had a set of channel locs in his truck so I unwound the axle and tightened the nuts. It worked ok and I got home. Thats when I decided to weld up the forks. I have a couple hundred km since and had no problem. So I'm sort of pretending that the whole thing didn't happen. Do you think that this will come around and bite me in the but?
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So the motor power lead, sensor leads and their power leads got wrapped around the axle until they were so tight they stopped the axle from turning ...great excuse to buy some new Teflon insulated silver 16 AWG and some 22 AWG to replace the sensors leads and their power leads in preparation for doing a 48 volt mod. They are ebikes on steriods and well worth the time and effort! Just stay off the public roads.
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myelectricbike, I hear ya. I just can't justify the 48v mod. I ride to commute to work. I don't ride on my days off. I think that I might pull in a new set of wires this winter when I can't ride. That is only for reliability. I look at this thing and I can't really find anything that I might improve. It works pretty good. I really want to see if I can wear it out.
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Oh and if I were going to do the 48volt thing I wouldn't start with a Raliegh bike. I think I'd want something a little beefier. I do like the Idea..... Lets see 48/36v thats 48/36km/hr. With the right gearing thats 50. I bet if you had a fairing you could do 80. My insurance company would kill me.
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:D Yes, you do have to be careful and a beefier bike is the place to start. The bike I used had an oversized frame so the issue was beefier spokes, rim and tires. I carry 4- 18AH SLA/AGM batteries mounted in side baskets at 12 lbs each - or 4 times the weight of a single 36 volt 15AH LiFePo4 pack. That's 48 lbs. I'm also normally returning from the store with a 60 lb back pack. Add everything up and I should probably have an industrial bike with 2.5 inch tires in addition to a trailer.
I think that's why the "still a bike" limit was set at 20 MPH and 750 watts no differenet than 21 being the legal age age for drinking. Although you can do 24 MPH with 48 volts its the pulling power (with the beefed up motor wiring) that is the main reason for this mode. 24 MPH is just fast enough to get you into twice as much trouble even without a heavy load, skimply breaks, etc. so for now without sturdier rims and spokes I rely on knee and elbow pads in addition to a crash helmet. Previous accidents on regular bikes keep safety (or danger) always on the mind.
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That sounds like allot of effort for a couple of Km/h. Most of the time now I cruise at 34-35 km/h. 24mph=38km/h. but it makes sense too. My mountain bike before the conversion cruised at 26 km/h. I can put out about 100 watts on the excersize bike in the gym. It takes an additional 600watts at 36 volts to go not quite 10 km/h faster. Anyway you look at it its is 25 percent more speed and It sounds like 25 percent more power. It must look funny when you take off from a stop light. Do the tires squalk when you give-er. That set up sounds like it would be ideal for a custom built bike. Maybe purpose built like a pedicab or load hauller. I think I could get the same performance as you by lacing my 36v motor into a c700 wheel and loose 30 pounds off my gut.
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Personally I rather deal with unintentional spinning than a wheelie although with a Tandem or Tadpole wheelies are not a problem. But remember 48 volts is strickly an off-road mod no matter how you do it. (In the US at least.)
If an excercise bike is your application, however, you can use the new regen comtroller (36 or 48 volts) to charge your batteries while you excercise. ;D
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Frig it's back again. Worse than ever. Got back from holidays and went to ride to work. A couple of pings when she rolled off the stand. About 5kms into the ride I hear this jjjj sound. By the time I get to work its so loud I need ear plugs. I'm guessing that the guy who turned the axel had a bit that was as sharp as a sledgehammer. Thats only 250kms on a new set of cheap 6202's. Maybe I can find a spherical contact bearing. I'll let you know how the rerebuild goes.
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Dalecv has a picture of a 20" wheel for his Bike Friday where the flats are NOT 180 and I've got a wheel that has a cast or forged iron or steel yoke spoke that is so quite at speed you can not hear it run except for the tires on the pavement and another with a forged or cast alloy yoke spoke that chatters so bad from torque vibration it sounds like its coming apart. Sure would like to take a trip to China.
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Draggin, when you buy bearings they are rated in a system with 1 being the worst and 8 being the best(8 is what they use in machine tools such as mills and lathes). Look for 5 or 6 for the wheel if it is available in your area. I am surprised the machinist that helped you did not question the quality of the replacement bearings. Anyway good luck and keep us posted. :)
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Pinging noise or more like two drum sticks being struck together hard was what my motor sounded like. It was so loud I didn't need to warn people I was passing because they were staring at me as I went by.
I took the wheel off and opened up the motor to check the sensors out but everything looked fine. I put it all back together and the noise was gone until I road a few miles then it would come back as bad as before. The hard part in finding the problem was that the noise would quit after I took the wheel off. I thought it was a bad bearing so I replaced the bearings. The noise was still there.
I finally cured my noise problem by taking the bearings out and used some fine, 180 grit, emory cloth to polish down the axles so that the bearing could be slid on by hand. I did the same with the side cover bearing seats. I then used Tenasious oil (a sticky oil I bought from a bike shop years ago) and put that between the side cover bearing seat and the outside of the bearing. I have done about 50 miles since and no noise.
I think what is happening is the shoulders on the axles that the center of the bearing seat up against are out of alignment just as the flattened sides of the axle are not parallel. When the axles nuts are tightened down this puts uneven tension between the outer surface of the bearing and the side cover bearing seat. As the motor heats up the aluminum expands and the bearing can then slip in the aluminum side cover bearing seat to relieve the pressure. It does this in sudden jerks and you get the loud pinging noise. The aluminum side cover is a very effective sound emitter. As I was sanding out the side cover bearing seat and the fit was almost there the bearing would slide in in small steps and make a noise similar to the pinging sound.
I figure the bearing is still wallowing in the side cover bearing seat but as long as it isn't make that loud noise I don't care. My hub motor has silver side covers with black center and has the name KUAKE on it along with some Chinese characters.
Good luck with your noise Draggin.
Dale
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Mustangman I can't blame the fitter for my own stupidity. Do you really think the $7.00 bearings are better than the 99 cent ones? I weight 250pounds not 2500 and the axel is turning at 200rpm not 2000. I'm not trying to be smart Mustangman I'm just shortening my sentences. I appreciate what you are saying. I now believe that there was nothing wrong with the first set of bearings that I tossed. Back when I was in trade school I learned that the rolling element in a bearing has to have an interference fit, the not moving one does not have to be. I put press fit repair on everything and when it hardened the missalignment is what made the noise. So Dalecv is right. There is a couple of bearing places in town I'm going to ask them what they think. A couple of angular contact ball bearings or tapered roller bearings might do the same thing. More than likely I will build up the shaft with bronze and get my buddy to turn it down true. Wait a minute If I heat up one side and remove the bearing and make it a sliding fit on the axle. I could tap the end cover and put 3 or 4 machine screws in to hold the outer race. It would have at least 50% chance of success. The down side is I think its the powercord side that is buggered up. All that soldering. My brain hurts. I,ll let you know next week
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Bearings as well as how they are installed makes a big difference in the final product. As far as the bearing prices, we are talking about only 2 bearings(@$7,00 each!) and the load placed upon them. The cheap bearings might do the job, but for how long will it last before you have to do it all over again, and again and again.... I worked in a big box auto parts store and they had 3 lines of brake pads all with a 'Lifetime" warranty, the cheap ones would last 20-30k, the next would last 30-40k and the best would last 40-50k miles. Personally I would not trust the cheap pads with my life and neither would I with cheap ball bearings but its your call and your life.
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Since it is the tightening of the axle nuts that forces the misalignment you could sand down the axles so that the bearings slip on smoothly. Make sure the bearings are seated fully into the side covers. Take a little liquid steel or some other epoxy type product and put a little on the axle where the bearings rest against the axle shoulder. Put the motor together and let the epoxy dry. Now when you tighten the axle nuts they will be compressing the center of the bearing against the epoxy and the shoulder on the axle and the bearings should stay in alignment.
Just trying to come up with a suggestion for a cheap easy solution to solve a problem on an inexpensive motor.
Good luck in whatever you do.
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I talked to my buddy the fitter about all this stuff today . He made some comment about how fat I was and a 26" wheel on a bearing like that was like crushing diamonds. And said that a better quality bearing could make a big difference. Strangely enough thats what I found when I pulled the end cover off the power cord side. The inner race was still holding but the outer race had ground the press fit repair into carbon. It looks as though the end cover has enough meat for four axial retaining bolts and perhaps a retaining ring could be made out of a washer. Then the inner race could be a sliding fit onto the axle and the outer race (rolling element) would be secure. Thus following the rules of nature.
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Humm, let's see now, 60 -65 lbs. for the bike w/motor, batteries 20-25 lbs. and one rider 250 lbs (like me) = 330 to 340 lbs(plus any cargo) on just two axles (4 bearings). That means each bearing is taking a true beating! :o :o
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Maybe the stock bicycle axle bearings but most likely not the 6202's.
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Ahh, then it comes down to the grade of the bearing. I would not want grade ones on the front wheels of my car or bike!(grade 5 or better please) ;D 8)
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A link to bearing sources such as VXB (http://www.vxb.com) that list grades 6202-8 (http://www.vxb.com/page/bearings/PROD/1-2inch/kit965) might be a good thing.
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OK so I got the sucker knocked apart again. I hated cutting the power cord, but I had to to get it in the lathe. When I measured the shoulders on the axle at the bearing it had a woble(for failure of a better word) of .018. I decided that the only way to true it up was to make a bushing and cut the shoulder down on the inner race saddle. The other thing that this would address would be the shoulder to shoulder length could be increased by 1mm. or .039". Thus putting the bearing further into the end cover. The first cut went excellent, used three jaw chuck on one end and a live center on the other. The power cord end was a different story. It appears that when they pressed in the axle not only did they mushroom over the bearing shoulder, but also bent the shaft. The run out on the one end of the shaft looked like 1/4" although was probably half that. To top it off once the shaft was bent the saddle was machined for the bearing. My buddy then says so now what you going to do? I thought, "yea the guy on the press made 350 canadian dollars worth of garbage." I grabbed the thing out of the lathe and chucked it on the machined surface on the other end and said,"turn this one the same". So the shoulders are now parallel but I have an excentricity of 8-10 thou on one end!
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I started thinking about all I have been through with this motor and every step of the way wondering if it is worth it. I feel sorry for Phillip and Golden motor. I'll bet half of the units out there have the same problem as this and will prematurely fail..This is the new improved version. What were the old ones like? I assembled the mkII this morning just to check the fit. I thought that there might be excessive Preload on the end cover. This turned out to be false..It actually spins better. I'm thinking that the .008" over 2.5" between bearings may actually be acceptable, as the actual bearing shimmy would be somewhat less. Especially with cheap bearings with lots of freeplay. Its too bad that they couldnt push the axle in from the solid end instead of the hollow end. It probably doesn't matter mild steel will bend anyway. If this bearing fails I don't know if there is a fix. My buddy says that the pressed on shaft is a one shot deal and pressing it appart would probably destroy the hub. I was thinking about starting to jog to work anyway.
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Draggin, a few questions to make sure I understand your post.
The axle shoulders that the inner portion of the bearing seat up against are not parallel with each other?
The axle shaft itself is not straight?
Thank you for taking the time with good equipment to figure these things out.
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dalecv Yes and yes. The non wire end was ok. It is machined smooth up to the hub. Im thinking it is the end that gets pressed into the hub, as the other end is rough steel sticking out of the hub. It looked to me like it was maybe not in the press quite straight. When the press came down the axle bent and mushed the bearing shoulder. It didn't seem to be bent anywhere else. I would give this repair an 8 out of 10 chance of working. At least when I tighten the heck out of the wheel nuts the bearing will be forced straight instead of crooked. I'll let you know if the fix pans out.
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and by the way my twenty minute repair ended up being 3 and a half hours in the machine shop!
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I hope they did not charge by the hour!!!
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How come you did not drill the axle out and use a keyed sleeve to separate the inner races? :o This is how I plane to do the stub axle for my etadpole with a bolt through the sleeve as the stub axle and a grove in the sleeve and bolt for the wiring. ::) If I'm not aware of a good reason why I should not drill out the pressed axle, please let me know. :-[
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myelectricbike, I was just thinking that. I mean what if this doesn't work? I think that is a great idea. Especially if you can get one a little harder. maybe even stainless. As for me I got the mkII put back together last night and had it out for a test ride. it seems to coast much better and no noise. when you pick up the wheel and spin it there is a slight noise that souns like one of the magnets just touching the stator. I know it is not. it is the missalignment of the bearing-eccentricity-. If this gets worse I think I will sell the bike and take the loss. Replacement is not really an option anymore here in Canada, as the price almost doubled with no battery in the kit. That puts them in direct competition with Wilderness and Crystalyte. I think the one comes with Nimh batteries. Ive noticed that Bionx is comming down in price a bit too. It's too bad cause these are nice units. But the axle issue is a fatal flaw. The guy on the line has to be a little more carefull pushing things together and that aint gonna happen, and he probably needs a new die every 10000 units or so, and that aint gonna happen. so if and when I go to replace this thing that aint gonna happen either. Ive only had it for 6 months do you think the warrantee is still good?
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Yeah, Draggin. Sorry I did not say something before. I was convinced your purpose was to tinker as much as to have a working bike. Write Philip Yao, tell him the problem briefly from start to end, site this topic and request a replacement from him. Philip is extremely sympathetic with owners who have a problem that is obviously Golden's fault and especially with owners who have gone to as much trouble and effort as you have to fix it on their own. Tell him I support your request and if you feel it is necessary ask other owners for their support as well. I do not think you will have any problem getting a replacement from Philip.
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Thanks that makes me feel better. But there may be no problem now. I will write him and let him know of the problem. Just incase this project goes south. You weren't exactly wrong on the purpose. I don't know if I would have the nerve to try the warrantee angle.
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Even so Philip is very understanding and wants to make good. If the problem originated with Golden then it is simply not your fault and Philip will agree. Never hurts to ask.
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my electric bike I hope Phillip is at sales @ gopldenmotor,com. cause thats where I sent the email thanks for the help.
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Actually it is sales@goldenmotor.com. Did Philip respond?
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Not yet. I would expect that he is a very busy guy. He may have to read my email many times and follow up reading this thread before he even knows what the heck I'm talking about. I'm sure he is familliar with the problem by now though. I had it out for a spin and it is much much better than it was. When you pedal it like a regular bike there is no detectible drag now. I didn't know they were like this. I may be the only one who has one that is half arse straight.
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It is discouraging but I have not yet gotten up enough determination to ask Philip if these kits are being constructed with factory seconds that failed some sort of quality test that kept them from being distributed in the PRC. Every single kit I have has one quality issue or another which would cause me as a line inspector to pull it off the line and send it to that area at the end of the line where any defects or quality issues are attended to and repaired instead of dumping on buyers located in another country, where they could not find me.
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You should ask period. As for kits sent here, they should be double checked because of the distance!!! :o
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Sorry, my plan is to discover the facts through osmosis. Either that or a trip to China. I do not want to embarrass Philip. He has been very nice to me, but is not the only owner.
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Thanks for taking my intrests to heart. I think you understand alot. I took my bike for a 5km twist this aft. I found that the tick I heard was comming from was the brake touching the rim. The axle is relatively straight now so I guess the rim has the wobble now. Easy to fix. Holidays are over and I start back on nights tomorrow. I want to get another 1300km on this thing before the snow flies.
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In that case I hope it does not matter if Philip fails to respond. I guess you are like everyone else who has purchased a kit through the website in being at Philip's mercy or availability of time. Great you had a machinist who could help out. Maybe its coincidence or the luck of the stars.