GoldenMotor.com Forum
General Category => Magic Pie & Smart Pie Discussions => Topic started by: Trond on August 11, 2010, 02:05:57 PM
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loses all power under load at low speed. I have tried with more wires and fuses. It cuts out about 5 seconds, then run again. Must ride up to about 15 km \ h before I can twist the throttel full at zero gradient. Charging the battery cuts out when I brake at high speed. Is there anything I can do about this? Otherwise I am very pleased. Have tried with two batteries. 48V lead acid 12a, and 20a Ping 48V battery.
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Hello and(https://i.imgur.com/evDSMvT.png)to GM forums.
Does the bike feel powerful at high speed under load or does it feel like a slug?
Do you get beeps?
Strange behavior!
Its almost like it cuts out because of high current sensing. Do you have programmable cable?
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Its almost like it cuts out because of high current sensing.
Or there may be a high voltage drop between the battery and the controller.
Is this a new problem or has it been this way since the motor was first fitted?
Rather than assume that it's a problem inside the controller, it would help to eliminate the external possibilities first:
If the battery gauge lights start to go out under load, it is more likely to be a voltage supply problem.
If the battery voltage remains high under load and the battery gauge indicates a low voltage, it will be a wiring, fuse or switch problem somewhere between the battery and the controller.
I have tried with more wires and fuses.
What size fuses have you tried, did any of them blow, and were they correctly connected using at least 30A cable?
Are all the joints on the battery leads soldered correctly?
A poor connection on the battery supply cables could result in a large voltage drop and if this occurs, it usually produces lots of heat.
Is there any sign of the battery leads getting warm at any of the connections while under load?
Charging the battery cuts out when I brake at high speed.
What size wheel is the Pie fitted into and how fast is "high speed"?
When replying to these questions, please try and give us as much information as possible.
For example, if it was a front Magic Pie fitted to a recumbent tandem with 6 foot battery cable extensions made from bell wire, this may be extremely relevant. ;)
Alan
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First used 20A fuse, Then used 2*20A fuses. Larger wiring then original Pie. These mods gave no change. The problem has allways been there and must be inside the magic Pie. The Pie vas bought in december last year. The indicator allways says full battery. 26 size rear Pie with no extra cable. Top speed 45km\h. Powerfull at high speed. Never heard beeps. No programmable cable. No hot cables.
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Maybe your Pie doesnt like to go slow.
Battery and fuses and cables are all good. Lotsa power on hills at higher speeds. Doubtful any user error is to blame.
Power cable to motor to internal controller may be defunct, following Alans suspicions..
Coils flex under high loads, very rare but if they short to stator on two phases, hmm almost impossible..
Must be controller dysfunctional.
Where did you buy this motor?
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Wow this is funny... (surely not at your expense Trond!)
I changed my wheel to 36v last week, noticing a great change in torque; near no notice of speed loss.
The wheel was originally set at 24v when I bought it (few months back), I already had a controller cable so I immediately set it to 48v when I received it.
Anywho I took it on a 40km+ test ride last night that had some decent but achievable hills. The last 20km's it rained, the last 10 of that my bike throttle was intermittent just like your symptoms.
So my immediate reaction was that I hit the overload protection on the BMS (that's what its for right?) - now that I thought about it, it would be good for GM to limit the software when changing the wheel voltage. I'll get the meter cranking at run some numbers me thinks..
It's no worries at full charge.
What I am gathering is that the software really doesn't apply a different voltage to the Pie, but perhaps limit the current supply to match the battery range (36v GM battery having higher max output than 48v)
So maybe 2 test options here?
1. Get or do you have a USB Controller cable?
2. See if you can get a 48V battery that has a max current output of ~50+ amps
I hope you get your pie chomping hills again soon dude.. No offense but those ping batteries generally have terrible max outputs - I would check the BMS max outputs fo sho
cheers :D
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Hi Monkey :D I ordered some pie and a wait for mine to be packed and delivered.
Yes the voltages in software are really set for LVC on the controller. Its like a double protection.
Yes the BMS why didnt I think of that.
On a side note.
I also pick up two of those latching relays you posted and going to give them a go, A good thick 60 amp switch like that should do well.
How did you arrange the latch on latch off for that relay?
Ohh and strange you lost torque and not speed, ':-X
Motors are generally wired up to give more torque with amps and speed with volts, in some instances in motor windings this is not a solid case. There are plenty of high voltage motors that don't need amps to wind up ship loads of torque.
The pie will give more torque with volts but generally speaking it should be losing speed when you lower the voltage.
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I bought it straight from GM China. Exactly the same problem with a new lead acid battery 12A. 'm Pretty sure that there is an overload protection in the hub that is too sensitive. I do not think I can connect PC to my Magic Pie. The Pie is too old? Wonder if I can change the electronics in the hub? Is it possible to buy it loose from GM? Thank you for helping me. My English is not very good, but hope you understand what I write and mean.
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Yes the BMS why didnt I think of that.
If the BMS was cutting off the power, I would expect at least one or two of the battery gauge LEDs to go off at slow speed! (All LEDs should go out if the BMS cuts out when the throttle is applied while the bike is stationary.)
But as:
The indicator allways says full battery.
This would seem to indicate that the required battery voltage is definitely reaching the Magic Pie's power lead, ruling out a problem with the switch, battery cables, connections and fuses etc., but a voltmeter would confirm this more accurately.
If the LVC on the pies controller cut in too soon, this could cause the motor to cut out and the battery gauge lights to remain on, but as they are usually preset for 24V batteries, this should definitely not happen with a 48V battery.
I'm Pretty sure that there is an overload protection in the hub that is too sensitive. I do not think I can connect PC to my Magic Pie. The Pie is too old? Wonder if I can change the electronics in the hub? Is it possible to buy it loose from GM? Thank you for helping me. My English is not very good, but hope you understand what I write and mean.
The current limit on the Pies does not cut the power completely, it just prevents it from going above a preset limit.
My Magic Pie won't go above 20.18 Amps at maximum motor load (steep hill starts from stationary) and my 25.9V 10Ah LiPo pack is rated 200Amps continuous and up to 300 Amps max!
If the controller is faulty, you may be able to get Tom (zhourenli@goldenmotor.com) to send you a replacement controller under warranty.
Alan
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Not received a response from GM. Does anyone know which part inside the electronics that control the max amperage or voltage consumption? That must be what makes the engine cut. Maybe I can change the part?
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Do you have PAS fitted? Mine act like that.... when PAS is in use....
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No Pas fitted.
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Hey just an update here..
Today before I put the front Magic Pie on I went for a ride to the supermarket.
Since my post here [where my hall sensors failed in the rain] I've been riding it with the hall sensors as disabled as I could think of getting them without disconnecting the wires inside - I set the phase to 60deg in the USB link. This made my pie beep immediately on startup so I thought that was good to leave it in sensorless mode.
Anyways before I left, I turned on my bike and since that night, what I remember is when I goto hit the throttle absolutely nothing happens. When I hit the throttle with the bike stationary it jerked then beeped so it prompted me to reset the phase back to 120deg
My hall sensor is back!! :D woohoo so I didn't know if that was a case of it being misaligned from a bump, or I am thinking definitely rain that has finally evaporated from in there. It was a really rainy night and water would have seeped in there a little bit. So that ceased up my hall sensors and lucky nothing happened to the controller. I could have tried this a few weeks back as in a few days after that rainy night. I can remember leaving the wheel in front of the heater for a long time to even get the wheel to work again....
So I took off to the supermarket like a happy Monkey without having to pedal or move the bike on takeoff ;) On the way back co-incidentally the throttle was cutting out again!! Here I jumped straight to thinking of the hall sensors but it was a nice sunny day. Anyway I pulled over and went to pull the plug out of my battery and noticed the connection was not in all the way.
I think this is a VERY important thing to check here
Make sure your battery power connector is firmly put all the way in the socket, also if you have soldered the wires yourself made sure you used a 80w or similar soldering iron to make a really good connection.
Could very well be the whole reason, because I had the EXACT same symptoms as Trond.
I then removed the socket, waited about 20 seconds for the power to diminish, then I firmly plugged the connector all the way into the battery.
Upon takeoff I noticed a massive increase in power as the connection was much better and overall my pie felt much healthier.
Trond, check your power connections including the pins inside your anderson connector (the big one that plugs into the battery) if you use a GM battery as it could very well be the problem.
Hope it is as it's been a while since we heard from you :D
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I think you got a good point there MM...
But I would take it further...
Originally, my 36V, 16Ah GM battery had the + wire inside the battery wired via the key switch - I think this is still the case on all gm batteries...
Many of us have experienced the spark that occurs when connecting the main power cables to the controller with power on the cables, and that spark occurs regularly each time one turn on the key switch. I believe that the contacts inside the key switch are getting worn/dirty over time, and would be a source for power loss.
I myself have resoldered the inside of the battery so that the power plug have full power all the time, and i've soldered a third, thinner + wire via the key switch, which goes to the thinner + wire on the controller.
This is the way it should have been made from GM, because this way, there's a better path for the power; less wear inside the key switch, and this is the only way to make the anti-theft alarm works... ;)
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If the controller remains connected to the pack at all times, the controller draws .08 amps/hour. 80ma.
24 hours a day * .08 = 1.92AH amps per day.
7 days * 1.92 amps per day = 13.44 AH per week. That's your 12 ah pack flat
13.44 amps per week * 4.3 weeks in a month = 57ah a month.Thats your pack finished.
There may be a reason GM makes the anti theft disabled now.
I believe LVC occurs if the pack becomes 10% out of balance. It is popular belief that if an LI pack is discharged to 70% DOD this can make the pack more out of balance than usual.
Leaving the pack on the charger for long periods of time like three days or more is recommend when you discharge the pack below 70%.
If you're using your bile and often do deep discharges, leave the charger on all the time to allow the cell to rebalance even if you don't use for a few days it may be good to just allow the BMS to bleed high cells off and allow the low cells to catch up. The pack can live on the charger in many situations.
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(http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2467.0;attach=3318;image)
I made this for my brushed bike last night.
It uses .037ma and uses 1.48W when the controller is switched on and no power at all when the controller is switched off via the relay.. You must switch it off to charge the batteries so the little red charge light on my charger tell me if Ive switched the pack off becuae I run no battery gauge LEDs. Most gauge LEDs are useless for LI usages anyway, and I know how far my packs will get me anyway and buy the right opack for the job at hand.
I have another power control box in the works and the relay part is suggested by Monkey. It uses a latching mechanism so it uses no power to stay on or off but only requires a small pulse to switch them.
http://cgi.ebay.com/2-PCS-12V-coil-polarized-latching-relays-60A-250V-AC-/250672035433?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a5d37b669 (http://cgi.ebay.com/2-PCS-12V-coil-polarized-latching-relays-60A-250V-AC-/250672035433?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a5d37b669)
The only problem is they aren't DPDT so I am looking at a way of making it not have the controller connected when the charger is engaged..
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You and me both mate .... ;)
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Just need another 10 amp DPDT relay to trigger off the mains latching relay on the controller side so the charge point is off when the controller is on and the charge point is off on when the controller is off... Be nice if we could get those 36v coils to run better charge point off efficiency..
Better if out relays were actually DPDT. This would seal the deal.
Using a dual flip flop latching polarized relay thing may get confused and would be a bugger to set right again. Doh they are polarized. It works.
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If the controller remains connected to the pack at all times, the controller draws .08 amps/hour. 80ma.
Now, let's use some real measured numbers here...
I've just measured the current draw on the minus lead, and it is as follows:
Main power on, key on: 52mA
Main power on, key off, alarm on: 19mA
Main power on, key off, alarm off: 2,6mA
Main power on = both main + and - connected from the bat. to the controller
Key on/off = thinner red on/off wire on the controller (at least on the external.)
Alarm on = cruise control pressed within 10sec after key off. (during the 10sec period, the current draw are 19mA.
This is with my 36V, 750W rear hub, 36V, 16Ah gm battery and the 36V external controller (bought last spring.)
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Does main power on/off mean unplug/plug pack with zap? I have no idea about how the GM batts are wired.
Yes I was just going on the single figure of what Alan gave me a few months ago. Maybe controllers differ. The figure was real with Alans configuration but from my understanding he uses a different pack too, not the same as your figure.
Monkey Magic made a post about the voltage settings (24v 36v 48v) and how they change the way the bike behaves. I wonder if this would change the power usage too?
It its good to get some real figures. Alan tested his and got 80ma DMM vary as well. And the BMS uses some power too I believe but not too much but that would be hard to test.
It would almost take a year to flaten a 16ah @ 2.6ma battery but a month for a 19ma.
My system uses 0ma main power off, 70ma power on. Its linear regulators and I wont be using a GM pack.
But I think it stands that if you leave your bike switched on and maybe for get to charge there is a higher chance to pack failure. I wonder why Alans tested at 80ma and yours test 52ma even though 80ma is still smallish you can see that 60% makes a difference over a month.. I think some may be unaware of how it can add up if you were to foget to switch you pack off after a ride so it remains that one should unplug a battery too or use proper switch.
I think I will be using the latching relays for my lithium packs as they use nothing but a short pulse to achieve the switch I can use a key too to enable the latch relay and that uses nothing as well.
19ma is pretty ok for the alarm IMO but still maybesomething you wouldnt want leaching on your capacity on a low battery.
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Yes, 'Main power on/off' would be plug/unplug the main plug from the pack. (I described how the gm pack are wired, and my modifications in an earlier post (http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?topic=2380.msg14410#msg14410) in this thread...) :)
I haven't disconnect my battery completely at all this summer; just turned it off with the key, even when I charge it - which I do frequently. (Some exceptions when I had some problems with water on my bms...at that time, I also measured the cell voltages; all was within 0.01V of each other.)
My home place are a pretty safe area, so I doesn't activate the alarm here; only when I park in public places...
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Hello. same problem still. Have measured the voltage drop and it is very low when this happens. from 55 to 54volt. Have checked the contacts and everything looks good. Voltage drop is measured into the pie and the battery. Considering buying new electronics inside the pie. Can it be purchased? Price?
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Trond,
It certainly does sound like a controller fault to me, and as it's less than 12 months old, it should still be covered by warranty.
Try sending another email to tom@goldenmotor.com explaining the problem as simply and clearly as possible and see what he says, and let us know the outcome.
(http://www.arhservices.co.uk/GoldenMotor/emoticons/fingerscrossed.GIF)
Alan
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No Answers from GM >:(
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Still no answer from GM. Considering buying a new controller. Which type shold I buy? External or internal? GM or other brand. Does GM sell only controllers? What price? Suggestions?
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GM China sell internal and external 'magic controllers' for about $33.00 USD I think, but then of course there is shipping. Where are you in the World? you maybe better off finding out if there is a dealer in your country, and then at lesat you will get better comms and guarantee.
Some people as far as I know go for Infineon controllers, but only if swapping from a GM external magic controller. But i'm a complete novice, so I do not know specifics.
If you already have an Internal magic controller then changing for an external will probably be very difficult unless you are electronically skilled
Andrew
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I am from Norway. If I get some instructions I can change from internal to external. The price from GM is ok, if it will work well. In Norway it does not get very hot. Seldom abow 25 celcius. Perhaps I try new GM internal first. If so do I need program cable? Any toughts about all this?
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The new dealer in norway did not respond to my mail.
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The new dealer in norway did not respond to my mail.
Perhaps you should try the phone instead:
Golden Motor Norge
Folkvordveien 84
4318 Sandnes
NORWAY
Tel: +47 40408650
Email:lars.ove.lofthus@lyse.net
Claudio Forlini
BRATTLIEN 38
5019 BERGEN
NORWAY
Tel: +47 94482234
Alan
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Can not find internal controller for sale on GM Website. Only program cable. My old internalcontroller gives good torq and speed(40-45km hour) Does the new internalcontroller give the same performance? The only problem with the old one is cutting of at low speed.
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Trond=Trond Jacobsen. Suddenly not able to log on. Needed new log in.
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Hmmm another person losing their account :(
I wonder if there is a maximum set.
I'm probably next lol
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Trond=Trond Jacobsen. Suddenly not able to log on. Needed new log in.
Welcome back Trond, unfortunately as MM already mentioned, you're not the only member who has lost their account.
I've been trying hard to find out how more than a dozen user accounts could have disappeared for no apparent reason during the past 4 or 5 days, but I cannot find any logical explanation for their disappearance.
If it was caused by Gremlins, I hope they've gone and don't come back again.
Alan
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Except gremlins, check who's got admin/account related rights... :)
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Has enyone bought seperate internal controller from GM? How do I do that? What price?
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i think they are about $33.00 USD on the GM website with the option to pay with Paypal, but then you will have see what postage they want to charge. go to the paypal checkout and it will tell you postage cost.
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The $33 "PI-0200I internal" on the website refers to the USB Programming Interface cable, not the controller itself.
I suggest you email sales@goldenmotor.com (or possibly tom@goldenmotor.com) and request a price for a replacement internal controller for the Magic Pie.
Alan
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Exact same problem on my Pedicab with one month old 901 front hub using the Golden Lithium Battery 36V16A. Tried two different Anderson connectors, but problem remains.
Specifically, on start (even without load) motor cuts out if throttle is opened quickly. After about five seconds will work if throttle is opened very gradually.
Once in motion, motor cuts out under load (hills) at low speed. After about five seconds it will work if load is decreased either by peddling hard first or changing gradient.
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Yes, same problem. Please post if you find a solution. I will. I will send email to GM about buying controller.
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Hi Pediman
Perhaps you should also contact Tom if you have not done so already.
The controller low voltage cutout would turn back on automatically, so if you are resetting to get the power back it sounds like the battery BMS is cutting out.
What voltage do you read from your battery terminal?
Email Tom tom@goldenmotor.com and explain you are experiencing this and steps to take next as you may need to test your cells.
I'm sure your pedicab customers would be wondering whats going on when the power cuts in and out!
good luck
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Exact same problem on my Pedicab with one month old 901 front hub using the Golden Lithium Battery 36V16A. Tried two different Anderson connectors, but problem remains.
Specifically, on start (even without load) motor cuts out if throttle is opened quickly. After about five seconds will work if throttle is opened very gradually.
Once in motion, motor cuts out under load (hills) at low speed. After about five seconds it will work if load is decreased either by peddling hard first or changing gradient.
Hello Pediman
Maybe this theory has already been floated but it sounds like a 36 volt battery running a controller set at 48v. Do you have a USB cable?
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No answer from GM. Considering Infineon 40. Easy to install? Does the Infineon need programing to work with MagicPie?
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The $33 "PI-0200I internal" on the website refers to the USB Programming Interface cable, not the controller itself.
I suggest you email sales@goldenmotor.com (or possibly tom@goldenmotor.com) and request a price for a replacement internal controller for the Magic Pie.
Alan
Sorry about that, I miss read the GM website
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No answer from GM. Considering Infineon 40. Easy to install? Does the Infineon need programing to work with MagicPie?
More useful information can be found here (http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?topic=2409.msg13512#msg13512) regarding the conversion from internal to external controller on the Magic Pie.
The Infineon controller (http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?topic=1963.msg16941#msg16941) does not need to be programmed to work with the Pie!
Alan
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i really hope internal controllers are available to purchase ??? I now have two of them, and am prepared and am slowly working upon my skills and understanding to eventually change one if neccessary.
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Hey Andrew
You have 2 spare controllers??? Awesome
What PCB's are they? (MX-318/319?)
How did you get those!! Sneaky
Don't even think about changing it unless its broken... And if a controller does fail, never throw it out as you can near guarantee it's just a couple of FET's on the board.
From memory, 1 forum member modded the internal controller running it external before changing it to an infineon. All other attempts to modify the board have seemed to fail.
I'm leaving mine alone ;)
The other night I fixed a MX-318 PCB (the one with the shunt mounted on side1 of PCB) before it had 5 beeps, I replaced the FETS and now it doesn't beep even without throttle connected - but plugging in a throttle it works!! (not sure for how long though..)
You can definitely 100% purchase an internal controller from GM - I paid $60USD via EMS over a year ago now and was sent a pack of circlips, MX-318 PCB (current at the time), new power wire (battery anderson connector), full pack of spare quick disconnectors + new controller to DIN socket harness
Not sure if it's the same price now, or what you get - but I'm sure it's available.
So how did you come across these controllers Drewmeister ??
:D
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You have 2 spare controllers??? Awesome
What PCB's are they? (MX-318/319?)
How did you get those!! Sneaky
MM, Andrew didn't say they were spare controllers, he's referring to the ones already fitted inside each of his Pies! ;D
Alan
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LOL I was wondering if people ebay those or something!
Thanks for pointing that out :D
Well keep them snug Andrew :)
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Im afraid to say that Alan is correct. No spare i/c's here :(
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Ohhh well that would have been nice :)
Still, it let me spill my story of replacing the blown fets in the other controller.
I have a couple of non-GM hub motors here I may try and test it on. I'll make a spiffy cooled controller box for it before I do any testing.
So is your rim true yet Andrew !?
:D
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Ohhh well that would have been nice :)
Still, it let me spill my story of replacing the blown fets in the other controller.
I have a couple of non-GM hub motors here I may try and test it on. I'll make a spiffy cooled controller box for it before I do any testing.
So is your rim true yet Andrew !?
:D
Yeah,, where you been?(or am I missing the humour :-\)......... I've been riding on the crest of a dual pie wave for the last 3 days. Rim arrived from China on monday with a set of new spokes, it was taken to a bike shop (i hate bike shops by the way) and they relaced it. same day I set it up and plugged it all in, and off I went. No regen or cruise, just me the pies and hydraulic brakes. I will try and take lots of photos this weekend and post up all the mods i've done to my bike since starting out on this E-Bike adventure ;D
Andrew :)
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I've been riding on the crest of a dual pie wave for the last 3 days. Rim arrived from China on monday with a set of new spokes, it was taken to a bike shop (i hate bike shops by the way) and they relaced it. same day I set it up and plugged it all in, and off I went. No regen or cruise, just me the pies and hydraulic brakes. I will try and take lots of photos this weekend and post up all the mods i've done to my bike since starting out on this E-Bike adventure ;D
Andrew :)
Certainly seems like you are enjoying it. Doesn't it snow where you are?
Gary
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the snow has thawed out for the present. Being in the South of the UK and being on the coast, snow is more of an event than a permanent fixture during winter. Anything that breaks up the monotony of rain and darkness is usually welcome. At present it's just crispy cold and sunny,, which is a blessing.
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ordered a spare controller myself, for external ( thanks gary, pie is fab by the way ) , im sure with dual pies, either replacement or parts, one will come in handy to have on hand sooner or later.....
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ordered a spare controller myself, for external ( thanks gary, pie is fab by the way ) , im sure with dual pies, either replacement or parts, one will come in handy to have on hand sooner or later.....
Glad to hear the pies are running well. Beware of the regen though. I noticed some high spikes from regen when I was testing it at full on both pies.
Gary
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Cheers for all the help Gary
To be honest I have disabled the regen on both wheels...my area is hilly and when I tested on 50% regen on a single wheel, I was pumping up to 25 amps regen peak......im not risking the controllers , got some good disc brakes :)......
Anyone had a response from GM on the use of USB cable limiting the controllers to 15 amps ish ?
regards
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like you Ginge i'm not risking using regen. My bike is sweet just using hydraulic disc brakes. From what i've read, and how I ride, I just don't need the regen, and with internal controllers i'm not about to take any cahnces. I have regen/cruise buttons connected to one pie at prresent, but I think I may strip it out of the equation all together
;)
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Anyone had a response from GM on the use of USB cable limiting the controllers to 15 amps ish ?
Whats the question? Did I miss something?
Gary