GoldenMotor.com Forum
General Category => Magic Pie & Smart Pie Discussions => Topic started by: Artem on June 23, 2011, 02:18:03 PM
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Good day, everyone.
I wrote a letter to GM, but maybe someone here could help me with this:
Throttle was sometimes hard to begin uphill, with even slightest elevation. It either stops unintentionally, while I begin to accelerate, or doesn’t start at all. Usually it takes several attempts to start throttling. Motor never gets hot, only a little bit warm.
Electric (regenerative?) brakes almost didn’t work at all. It is possible to stop with them only from the lowest speed of 5km/h approximately. If the speed is more than this, brakes just let the motor to freewheel. I don’t know if they are concerving electrical energy.
When I tried to use USB cable to see, if it is because of controller settings, I couldn’t connect to it. Software starts, when I choose “Connect” nothing happens with the program itself, only the motor starts to beep constantly. “Get settings” didn’t load any, changing parameters and saving them seems to have no effect on the motor behaviour. Only “Disconnect” button worked, but somehow it says that “Get settings” is comeplete, and any changes in parameters reset to their initial state. I found here on forums suggestion, that maybe yellow wire is unconnected inside. But when I opened motor, I saw, that some grey wire is connected to both RX and TX. Looks like it is yellow, but lost it's color.
After approximately 360km, “Cruise control” button stopped to work. I opened motor and checked electrical connection to the controller itself, the button itself and wires are functioning properly. But I have absolutely no voltage reading on the button’s wires.
Please, help!
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Hi and(https://i.imgur.com/evDSMvT.png)to the forum Artem.
Throttle was sometimes hard to begin uphill, with even slightest elevation. It either stops unintentionally, while I begin to accelerate, or doesn’t start at all. Usually it takes several attempts to start throttling. Motor never gets hot, only a little bit warm.
Sounds like it could be a poor contact on the battery supply lead, check the connections on the battery to make sure they are still securely connected.
Electric (regenerative?) brakes almost didn’t work at all. It is possible to stop with them only from the lowest speed of 5km/h approximately. If the speed is more than this, brakes just let the motor to freewheel. I don’t know if they are concerving electrical energy.
The regenerative braking will not do much at very low speeds (<5kmh), but it's usually quite effective at higher speeds, the amount of braking will depend upon the wheel size, battery voltage (and type) and the software setting.
If I have my regen switched on, I would have to pedal very hard to try and exceed 10km/h.
When I tried to use USB cable to see, if it is because of controller settings, I couldn’t connect to it. Software starts, when I choose “Connect” nothing happens with the program itself, only the motor starts to beep constantly. “Get settings” didn’t load any, changing parameters and saving them seems to have no effect on the motor behaviour. Only “Disconnect” button worked, but somehow it says that “Get settings” is complete, and any changes in parameters reset to their initial state. I found here on forums suggestion, that maybe yellow wire is unconnected inside. But when I opened motor, I saw, that some grey wire is connected to both RX and TX. Looks like it is yellow, but lost it's color.
I've never tried programming, so I cannot really comment on this particular problem, but several members have recently reported this constant beeping and are unable to program the controller.
After approximately 360km, “Cruise control” button stopped to work. I opened motor and checked electrical connection to the controller itself, the button itself and wires are functioning properly. But I have absolutely no voltage reading on the button’s wires.
Did you check the voltage on the cruise connection on the controller when you had the motor apart?
When was your wheel kit purchased?
Is the cutting out problem a recent development, or has it been like this from new?
Carefully check all of the connections, especially the battery (and switch if fitted), and see if you can find anything obviously loose.
Alan
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Thank you very much! :)
When was your wheel kit purchased?
Is the cutting out problem a recent development, or has it been like this from new?
Carefully check all of the connections, especially the battery (and switch if fitted), and see if you can find anything obviously loose.
Sounds like it could be a poor contact on the battery supply lead, check the connections on the battery to make sure they are still securely connected
Bought it at 5th of May, arrived at 23d, started exploitation at the beginning of June. It was from the very beginning (my first disappointment in MP :-\).
But yesterday it was more then usual, and I have checked connection as you say. Indeed, the power plug in the battery itself was somewhat loosened. Fixed it, will check tomorrow, if it helps.
Do you mean that I need to open battery case to check key-switch and so on? (it is sealed everywhere with "Tear invalid" :) )
The regenerative braking will not do much at very low speeds (<5kmh), but it's usually quite effective at higher speeds, the amount of braking will depend upon the wheel size, battery voltage (and type) and the software setting.
If I have my regen switched on, I would have to pedal very hard to try and exceed 10km/h.
Yes, I thought so, and that is my point - I can stop electrically only if I'm very slow. If my speed is more than 7km/h - brakes do nothing except for stopping power to the motor. I have 26" wheels, standard GM battery 48V 12Ah. Software says 50% regen braking, but I don't know should I believe it, considering my connection problems.
I've never tried programming, so I cannot really comment on this particular problem, but several members have recently reported this constant beeping and are unable to program the controller.
Well, I hope GM will answer something about that.
Did you check the voltage on the cruise connection on the controller when you had the motor apart?
Yes, I did, absolutely zero volts.
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Hey
First you have to distinguish between things that are working to the normal characteristics and the faults.
The delay is due to the regen and the controller and is normal characteristics according to Monkey who I'd credit with knowing his stuff.
The cutting out however is an issue and needs to be solved, I have this also, I suspect the current/battery management, but the usb cable is a blocker on trying some settings to isolate.
Hopefuly the USB controller issue with come to light soon as its a pain to many. I'll have a crack at it myself when I rebuild my wheel who knows??
Personaly the regen braking is something I'm thinking of turning off or down.
watch out for the anderson plug that is a certain early fail point, mine lasted 5 mins litteraly.
good luck with the other issues sounds frustrating.
Cheers
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Hi Artem,
If there was a loose conection on the battery take a close look at the plug on the cable and in the battery. I have seen the plug fail and one contact moves back when you plug it in. this still crates a conection but not a very good one. The contacts should tell the story with marks from sparking. The image below shows the contact points in a battery. I suspect the battery cable plug is broken in this case and making bad contact. The image of the battery cable that was sent to me is unclear.
That being said the contacts could also look like this from plugging the battery in when it is switched on. Most people have the battery off when making a connection, but not all.
Gary
(https://arhservices.co.uk/GoldenMotorCanada/Battery_Plug_Bad_Contact.jpg)
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Well, I tried, and nothing changed.
I took a closer look at the battery socket, and indeed, one connector was moved back. I disassembled battery. Inside everything looks good, solder is fine, no traces of sparks or burn-outs or something. One wire at charger side had hole in its insulation, I covered it with tape de bene esse. I fixed connector and assembled battery back.
Well, no changes. I can say that max speed lowered as well, to say by 3-4km/h. If before I could make 42-43 km/h on flat, now it is ~39. I figured out the system - I can throttle well only if I get 21km/h already - then no problem, motor is able to speed up and to maintain speed.
My overall feeling is that it is getting worse every time.
And it is rather uncomfortable to ride without Cruise Control button.
Any suggestions, gentlemen?
No answer from GM. I wrote at zhourenli@goldenmotor.com and sales - are those right e-mails?
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I wrote at zhourenli@goldenmotor.com and sales - are those right e-mails?
You could also give tom@goldenmotor.com a try. It's Toms newer email to 'zhourenli@goldenmotor.com'
Cheers
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Hi Artem,
Im going to take a guess here as I have recently had ths happen.
My guess is you have a GM aluminum cased battery with keyswitch?
I have a customers battery that worked fine for a few weeks and suddenly started doing exactly as you described. The strangest thing was it read 54 volts right at the battery plug, but when you plug it into the bike no go. I for sure assumed it was the bike untill I tried another battery on it and the bike went fine.Then if you plugged the charger into the battery it would light up the throttle lights for about 3 seconds then go out. Then about 3 seconds later the lights would come on again.Then off, then on for as long as I leave the charger. Now it thought for sure it must be the BMS. But I have never had one fail. This is weird.
After reading posts about key switches not working properly and having to be cleaned. Then thinking I have sent out a few replacement keyswitches myself to replace ones that were inconsistant at turning on. I decided to try bypassing the switch to see what would happen. I opened the battery cut the wires at the key switch and bypassed it. Be carefull if you try this as the red wires are live and will ground out on the case.
Now the battery and bike work perfect! I had someone contact me and after some converstion we thought his controller had failed. After fixing this battery I contacted him and asked him to bypass the battery key switch and now his bike is fine.
My usual method to fix something is to kick it or shake it. If that dosnt work I just throw it away. But I am getting better :) So if I can fix this I am sure you can.
As others have posted they only cleaned there switch when it started malfunctioning so you may not have to cut the wires. But I used the "lets make sure its the switch" method.
So I have my fingers crossed you have a gm keyswitch and my toes crossed this fixes it :)
Gary
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Well, you guess right, it is exactly this nice aluminium casing (it was one of the reasons I choose GM).
I have disassembled the battery as you can see, and found absolutely no flaws whatsoever, and in the key switch as well. And I don't have this behavior with throttle lights. But anyway I'll try your method, except that it is a pity to get rid off the key switch.
And also it doesn't explain, I think, Cruise Control and problems with programming.
It would be nice to have at least whole power and speed back, thank you!
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Alas, no luck with it. Made a very nice strand bypassing key switch, but nothing changed.
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Darn, I thought that could have been it. Oh well. I have to admit though I did also try using a jumped wire to get it to work without any luck. It wasnt until a few days later I did the chop and twist it worked. But I am sure you did a sufficient test. I do feel that if there is a possible loose conection in the ignition or jump wire its enough power loss to kickout the BMS. But of couse everytime I think I know something I'm wrong...
Gary
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Well, I have an update here. I bought some kind of cheap wattmeter from DX. It shows the following: seems that there is no amperage cut-off: if I start acceleration, it can be on any number from 3 to 17 amps, engine just stops and no ampers being drawn. (And throttle lights don't go off, as I said before). If I manage to get speed slowly, it draws 18.1 max amp (seems to be a pre-defined limit) and makes approx 900W.
Several kilometers after I noticed, that full battery (~54V) can fall as low as 42.3V at max amperage. And green light go dim - never happened this fast before. I guessed it is because of a poor connection of wattmeter between battery and motor - I couldn't find that SAE connector. It seems to be quite true. This ride was very strange indeed - battery died after, I bet, no more than 25km, while 48km is my usual result.
Well, does it make situation little bit more clear?
PS It started raining, and my poor wattmeter seems to have died, but anyway, he completed his mission :)
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Hi all
maybe your controller has gone into sensorless mode or unkown fault that will only give you 50% power/half speed
{ your comments seem to say that }
(re-check all connections control side to reset switch off / on ALL power to reboot controller )
when connections seem all right ! they may not be !
John L
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Well, if it has gone sensorless, shouldn't it beep? No faults in connection as I can see.
Anyway, are the described wattmeter readings normal? For example, I can conclude that inner resistance of my battery is approx (54-42.3)V/18A = 0.65Ohm - is it OK?
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Sensorless mode does not noticeably reduce the power, it usually stops the motor from starting on its own, but once the motor is turning, the throttle works normally, although I did notice a slight delay on the throttle when running in sensorless mode.
Not all of the controllers actually beep, but you can easily check to see if your does by holding the brake on and then operating the throttle four or five times, and if you're lucky, you should hear a beep.
John, I think you're getting confused with the fail-safe system which allows the cruise button to give half throttle while pressed if either the brake switch or the throttle control fails.
Artem, if your battery is only partially discharged and is being pulled down to around 42V under 18 Amps load, I would say you may have a problem with some of the cells.
Unfortunately, without being able to check each of the 13 groups of cells under load, it will be difficult to locate the faulty ones.
Did your wattmeter return to life again after it dried out?
Alan
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Well, I forgot to experiment with the beeps, but anyway, during my unsuccessful attempts to program with USB cable I have definitely heard beeps. So it is not like sensorless mode problem, I think.
Yes, my wattmeter revived!
Today there were no rain and I took pre measures made of cellophane :)
Still can't find SAE plug, so I decided to solder wattmeter connection firmly. It helped a lot - fresh 54.4V battery didn't drop lower than 45,7V at 18.3A. I even started to hope, that there will be no usual cut-off, but, alas, it is still there. Also I noticed, that just before cut-off motor starts to "choke" a little - like my "regen" braking (that doesn't work as well) do on lower speeds.
Here are the stats from my ride (voltage without load):
4,565Ah 50,26V 18,76 km
7,871Ah 47,03V 30,26 km
By the end voltage under load was approx 44V, and I have feeling that overall power lowered, at least I didn't notice any current above 17A.
So, 850W is maximum that I saw from the 1KW pie in any condition: flat, elevation, downhill. Cold it be the case of those cut-offs?
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750w was my typical output from the internal controller version of the Magic Pie
if I went on any long rides, as the internal heated up, I would feel heavy vibration under heavy load
my idea is that near the end of your ride, stop for 30 mins, have sandwich, beer etc, let controller and internal pie cool down ( even macs can be warm after several hours), then resume, try result....if same in first minute or two, then heat of the controller is not an issue
:)
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Well, the situation is not clear still, but anyway, with that bunch of problems it is obvious that controller is not in good condition too. So I decided to replace it until spring.
Since I never had any reply from GM, is there anybody on this forum, who can help me with buying/replacing it?
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I totally get the frustration. My internal pi hadintermittant fault. Cut out under load, wouldn't sart again after braking for about 3secs, wouldn't take the config changes from the pi200, regen braking wasn't much good etc.... Now I have a dual external to compare against and it's absolutely no comparison. Throttle responds immediately every time. Hasn't cut out on me once ever under all manner of stop, start, hills gutters you name it, even going slow on very steep hill with nit wit car trying to squeeze me into the gutter, just kept on purring. Regen works flawlessly at all speeds. So if that's not the experience your getting you got a dud faulty interal controller like me, my old one bought at about the same date as yours, my guess is there's something gone in the power CCt, blown fet or the like and fried something to do with the programmable EPROM. Just cutvyour losses and scrap it and start over with the external controller. I ether swap out the lot or check the post showing how to retire for xtnl. Good luck!
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Someone mentioned new e-mail to contact GM: wyh@goldenmotor.com
And suddenly it works :)
They have agreed to send me a replacement controller. So we'll see if it help :)
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So, the good news are: the new controller has solved almost each and every issue mentioned here.
I tested it a bit, no problems with throttling, and I managed to see unbelievable 25A while going uphill (i assume nobody saw 30A cont and 50 peak here from base internal? :) ) Not to mention cruise controls, brakes etc. And I can change settings now.
But there is still a reason to worry about. 25A is good, but it drops voltage down to 40V from 54,6 fresh. That's not quite right, I believe? Seems like it will drop lower than cut-off limit after some kilometers.
So now I'll lay my hands on the battery, the controller issue seems to be closed.
Oh, wait. I found that speed characteristics are getting worse as well. Max speed is 38km/h even downhill. Maybe some settings to play with.
But for now I'm happy to have the cruise button back :)
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I'm very pleased to hear your controller problem has now been sorted.
And a big "Well done!" to David at GM, whose customer service seems to be getting better every day.
(http://www.arhservices.co.uk/GoldenMotor/emoticons/6_small.GIF)
Alan
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And a big "Well done!" to David at GM
Absolutely! :)
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Don't know, maybe I should start new thread, but I'll continue for now.
Well, I took a first serious ride after the controller replacement. And I got some really strange results :)
First of all I changed some settings via USB, set 48V, 100% rpm, low pedelec, etc.
At start feeling was like it really got little bit faster. At least I managed to ride some 45km/h downhill (with the first controller max was about 49). After maybe 24km it became obvious that power is getting down. No more wonderful 25A, maybe 16 as max. Throttle lights behave more correct - never got the whole way down.
I continued to work out battery - I was wandering how long will it last, remembering my 48 km long rides. Closer to 42 km something really strange become obvious - amperage almost vanishes. I got some hilarious 2 Amps. No hill climbing with those conditions, of course. Meanwhile lights shown stable red without even a flicker (with the old controller by that time usually all lights got off under load). Well, it seemed that motor could honestly ride all 48km, but it was of no use - when I took the bike home it hardly could carry its own weight up the rails beside my stairs (with 0.6A).
45km, including 3-5km of some ill hobbling.
And overall voltage didn't drop lower than 42V.
First thing home I disassembled battery and measured triplets (yes, I finally realize that it is LiMn rather than LiFePo as it is stated on a label :)). To my surprise, all of them had approx 3.35+- 0.04V. So battery looks like normal.
So, what was it, anyway?
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Artem, now that your motor is drawing more power from your battery pack, it will obviously consume the available battery power much quicker.
If you use more power, the majority of the extra power is used to overcome the additional drag from the increased speed, therefore your range will also be reduced.
If a pack could deliver 100% of its stated capacity, a 12Ah pack @ 17 Amps would last more than 42 minutes, but the same 12Ah pack @ 25 Amps would last less than 29 minutes. The duration is reduced by 32% because the pack is now supplying 47% more energy under maximum load!
More power will result in faster acceleration and higher speed, but a large proportion of the extra power will actually be wasted by the extra aerodynamic drag at the higher speed. Check out this site (http://www.raltech.co.uk/Tech_8-Speed.html) for more specific details.
This would probably account for the power starting to reduce much sooner than it did before, but I can't explain why the battery light used to go out completely under load, whereas now they do not. ???
The fact that your cells were all discharged to 3.35V ±0.04V is a pretty good indication that your motor has actually consumed around 98% of your pack's total capacity:
(http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2181.0;attach=2313;image)
If your battery management system has been designed to gradually reduce the current when the voltage approached the pre-set minimum voltage (instead of simply cutting it off completely) this could account for the extremely low current readings that you observed during the final part of your trip when your battery was almost completely exhausted.
Alan
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Understood that. But I have standard GM 48V battery in aluminum case, so, the standard BMS (GM misguide me again, I'd rather expect that I've bought LiFePo). I can expect some power degradation while battery discharges, but should it be so dramatic?
I can conclude from what I saw, that the battery internal resistance is 0.500-0.650 Ohms. Is it normal at all for this battery?
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As I've never used one, I can't really comment on how noticeable the typical power degradation is with the GM LiMn battery packs during use, perhaps other users on this forum would be kind enough to comment on their experience.
Regarding your estimated internal resistance, the individual LiMn cells are reported to have an internal resistance at shipping of 23±1 milliohms By AC 1 kHz which (if my calculations are correct) is approx 0.008 Ohm for each group of three paralleled cells. Multiply this by thirteen (for the thirteen cell groups connected in series) and we get 0.104 Ohm.
As the cells are no longer new, presumably their resistance will have increased as a result of both use and age, which would make this value a fair bit higher.
If we also take into consideration the build up of resistance from the internal wiring, the MOSFETs and shunts on the BMS itself, and not forgetting the resistance across switch contacts, battery power connectors and even the shunt within your ammeter itself.
With all thing being considered, it's possible that your suspected 0.5-0.65 Ohm could actually be normal. ???
Alan
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Thank you very much, you clarify many things for me again :) Will wait if somebody o current owners will respond.
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Hi,
I am having a similar problem, 2 months ago when I received the Magic Pie 3 48v.
It was working perfectly, then 2 weeks ago sometimes it didn't start on its own, I had to pedal for a few meters then the engine would start.
Yesterday he engine didn't start again, I pedalled for 200m and still nothing happened I only hear a small noise from the engine meaning it is alive but it doesn't want to turn. I only hear the noise if I pedal but it doesn't bring power. I tried in freeweel mode and even by turning the wheel by hand it is to weak to start. (battery fully charged, throttle showing green light, and same problem if I unplug the brakes and cruise control button)
Can anyone help me?
Thanks in advance
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Maybe hall sensors problem..
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Hi , I think you are right it would make sense
How can I check the hall sensor and fix it?
Best regards,
Matthieu
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You can disconnect the hall sensors connector at the controller.
If the motor runs good then you know.....
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OK I will try, can you jst show me on a photo where they are located, I looked at an old controller and cannot see them
thanks in advance
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The hall sensors are hiding inside the motor but they connect to the controller via this six pin block connector:
(http://www.arhservices.co.uk/GoldenMotor/Hallsensorplug.JPG)
It would be worth checking that the five crimped sockets on the hall sensor leads are fully inserted into the connector block as shown in the above picture, and then make sure the connector is clicked properly into the socket on the controller.
I have never tried running an MPIII with the sensors disconnected, so I don't know whether the MPIII controller supports sensorless operation or not.
Perhaps if someone has already tried it they can confirm whether it works sensorless or not.
Alan
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Knowing that by sending me another MP3 controller it won't solve he problem (it was like that on my previous wheel...) I bought the external controller to give it a last chance before sending it to the bin and buying a European or US technology tested by the company and not by the customers as it looks like normal to them.
This is amazing they could become very rich but testing isn't part of their quality system, I am sure they don't know the definition of the word quality.
So after receiving the external controller, I checked the cables and guess what, the cable to link the engine is missing, sounds normal knowing them...
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Hi Bikemad,
I have finally managed to rebuild the bike with a GM external controller, At the beginning of my first ride it was fine, but towards the ed (8km) when I started to go downhill with a regenerative brake at 20% it started to beep.
For me it is like 2 beeps or 1 beep, I thought it overheated but during my journey back this evening it started to beep after 5meters
By browsing the forum I found this:
1 beep: Confirmation of anti-theft alarm activation or selection of pedelec mode
2 beeps: Motor hall sensor fault (or confirmation during motor phase calibration)
3 beeps: Throttle fault
4 beeps: Power breaking switch faulty or wires short circuited.
So how do I deactivate the alarm? any ideas?
Thanks in advance
Mat
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Hi Mat,
The alarm function only works with the earlier external controllers and enabling its operation involved modifying the standard wiring to include a separate switch on the thin wire which loops out of the battery + connection on the controller, but if your controller is less than 18 months old it is unlikely to have an alarm function anyway.
It might be worth re-checking the connections on the controller and motor, and also the main power connectors on the battery to see if there is any sign of an intermittent connection (which might be the cause of the beeping) when the wires are moved.
If it was 2 beeps indicating a hall sensor problem, the throttle would not respond while the bike is stationary and the wheel would need to be turning before the throttle would respond.
Alan
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Hi Alan,
I checked again today and it is 2 beeps, I need to pedal a bit to star he engine, is it OK if I continue like this or are there risks involved?
Best regards,
Mat
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Mat, running in sensorless mode should not cause any problems whatsoever, but it does make pulling away on steep hills a bit more difficult as you cannot simply pull away from a standstill with motor assistance.
I ran mine in sensorless mode for several weeks until I finally got around to replacing the blown hall sensors. Although I found it to be marginally noisier than running in sensor controlled mode, it still ran smoothly all the way to maximum speed once it had started running.
Your problem could be caused by one or more failed hall sensors, or a poor connection on the hall sensor wiring.
The external connections should be easy enough to check, but the internal ones will obviously involve removing and dismantling the wheel again. :(
Alan