GoldenMotor.com Forum
General Category => Magic Pie & Smart Pie Discussions => Topic started by: diverdon on May 28, 2022, 02:51:30 PM
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Hello all I was just wondering if Golden Motors has found a solution to the offset rim/wheels on their front hub motors ...Here's the quote from Bikemad on the subject
The offset wheel rims on the original spoked Magic Pies was due to the narrow flange design of the original motor ring which was unfortunately centered within the offset hub instead of the dropouts, which is why I had to modify mine by adding an additional flange ring to allow the rim to be properly centered:
It's where he describes it as .. " Unfortunate " .. that get's me .. Just wondering if they have identified this and better yet fixed it ... I love my Magic Pie and ride most every day ...people ask about it and I'd like to recommend them ...But ... I cannot look someone in the eye and say ..." That's Normal " ...
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Hi Don,
I thought I had already explained in this post (https://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?topic=7097.msg38689#msg38689) that the problem with the offset spoked rim was corrected (along with the excessive spoke angles) when the MPII was introduced over a decade ago.
Shortly after my suggested solution to cure offset rims (https://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?topic=1430.msg8746#msg8746) back in January 2010, GM took my advice and the MPII was developed to correct the two major problems with the original Magic Pie, the offset wheel rim and the poorly aligned spokes caused by the excessive angle between the rim and the spokes:
(http://www.arhservices.co.uk/GoldenMotor/offset.GIF)(http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1653.0;attach=1739;image)
Alan, You have done great job!
Golden Motor will take your suggestions and modify the motor ring to off-center like your modifications. Basically we will use thicker motor ring (30mm instead of current 23mm) and machine it to become off-centered.
Thanks for all your support. We will give you some rewards for your effort to help us improve our products.
Philip Yao
President of Golden Motor
All spoked Magic Pies produced since 2011 (MPII, MPIII, MP4 and MP5) should no longer suffer with offset rims or badly aligned spokes.
Just wondering if they have identified this and better yet fixed it
Hopefully you should now realise that the offset rim problem was quickly identified and subsequently fixed a long time ago. ;)
Alan
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Hi Alan ...and once again ...thanks for your help ...Been riding most every day for close to 2 years on this one and it has never failed me ...
I was just checking in to see if this problem had been cured and have now seen more of your work with GM ..Helping them figure this out ...
" If a spoked rim is offset on a MPII, MPIII, MP4 or MP5, it is because the rim was not properly centred during assembly, and it should be possible to sort this simply by readjusting the spokes correctly."
so are you saying here the wheel I have was assembled wrong ? This is a MP 5 .... If I could get it fixed it would be great ... I have had 2 front hub kits that had this offset wheel a 500 watt and now this MP5 100 watt ... I'd even pay for a new motor if I knew it would be centered ...
Any Advice you can give would be deeply appreciated ...perhaps I should just keep riding it and not worry about it ... If I hadn't seen it I wouldn't know it was off ...But ...I just cannot recommend this kit as I couldn't look someone in the eye and say ..."That's Normal"
Thanks again for Listening and all your help ...
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Hi Alan .. I'm confused I bought this MP5 Vector in 2019 and it has the offset wheel problem ... I read where this was "Fixed" in 2011 ..
All spoked Magic Pies produced since 2011 (MPII, MPIII, MP4 and MP5) should no longer suffer with offset rims or badly aligned spokes.
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Is it just me having a déjà vu moment? ???
Your MP5 should not have the offset rim problem, so there are three possible causes:
- Your wheel has not been fitted in the correct upright position and is tilted slightly to one side. The wheel will need to be refitted into the fork dropouts making sure it is in a perfectly upright position.
- The hub has more spacer washers (or Torque arms etc.) on one side than the other.
- The spokes were not originally fitted with the rim perfectly centred and will need to be adjusted to bring the rim into the correct central position.
Hi Don,
It's the hub that needs to be slightly offset to the right to allow additional room for the brake disc on the left - not the rim.
If you have a cast 16" or 18" front wheel and suspension forks, there is not much that can be done to reduce the offset. I may be possible the tweak non-suspension steel forks slightly to reduce the offset.
However, the cast 20" front wheel should be correctly centred if GM have followed my suggestions (https://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?topic=1430.msg8724#msg8724) correctly.
A spoked rim can be offset slightly to the left in relation to the motor, so it can still be correctly centred between the forks provided that the spokes have been correctly adjusted and tensioned.
If you have a spoked front wheel and your rim is not centred between the forks, it should be possible to adjust it (after making sure that the wheel has been installed perfectly upright in the fork dropouts) by adjusting the spokes to bring it into the correct position.
I would start at the valve and then slacken in turn the nipples of all 18 spokes on the side of the rim that is closest to the fork one complete turn until I reached the valve again.
I would then tighten each nipple on the 18 opposite side spokes one complete turn until I reached the valve for the second time and then check the offset.
You may have to repeat this process several times (using smaller or larger adjustments as necessary) until the rim is properly centred within the forks.
Hopefully you can understand what I'm trying to explain.
(http://www.arhservices.co.uk/GoldenMotor/emoticons/fingerscrossed.GIF)
Alan
Make sure your axle is located fully into both dropouts ensuring the wheel is perfectly upright. If it is not, you may have to file the dropouts slightly until it fits in fully.
If the rim is still offset within the forks, follow my previous instructions to get the rim properly centred within the forks and then adjust your brakes if necessary to ensure they too are properly centred and not binding.
Alan
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Hi Alan ... Thanks for your help ... The wheel ..axle is in the dropout correctly ... It has a slotted axle and will only go in one way ...Fits perfect ... I have used torque arms on both sides since the beginning ..I think I once sent a video on here of the dropout "slop" I thought was a problem and you told me it was OK ..
The wheel/rim is off quite a bit ...It has been this way since I got it ... It works fine ...But ..I'd like to fix it if possible .. Don't think adjusting the spokes will move it that much ... also on my 1st Magic Pie ...Long ago I had a motor relaced to another size MP Rim ...Never worked ..broken/loose spokes ..ruined the kit.. so I'm afraid to mess with the spokes ... This came to me this way ... I asked about it in 2019 and ended up thinking there was no fix ... I was just checking back last week to see if there was a fix yet and learned some new things ...
How do you suppose I got this kit with the offset wheel in the first place ? If I was to buy a new one today would it have the tire centered when I mounted it ? I don't understand how this could have happened when they "fixed" the problem long ago ...
Sorry this is so long ...thanks again for your help ...Just trying to explain .. I'd just like to fix it if I can without the chance of destroying it ...
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Hello All ..
Rained today so I took apart the motor dropout to make sure it's all the way in .. It is .. I am trying to understand this .. The hub/motor is offset due to the controller bulge ...This only goes in 1 way ..The axle is slotted to fit the dropout ... The "slotted" part ends and that's where it spaces itself in the dropout ...fits perfect ...so the rim/tire is offset due to it being exactly above the offset hub/motor > I see where Bikemad worked with goldenmotors to fix this but mine is from 2019 and should be in the "fixed" ones ... I would just like to figure out the problem ... How far over can you "dish" the wheel ? and why do I have 1 that needs "dishing" ?
Thanks for any help you can give ... I just can't see it ..The only Fix I can see is dishing the rim over and am not sure how far it could move without binding the spokes on the hub/motor ...
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This is what I sent in the Golden Motors Ticket I have submitted ... Their maybe having a hard time communicating with me .. Maybe this can help explain the Problem ...
It has rained the last 2 days ..so I took apart the wheel to make sure it was in the dropout all the way .. It is ..sorta a pain as I have to deal with the special washer for the Lawyer Lip and the other 2 washers with the torque arm ..
anyhow it's in all the way ..both sides .. Here's what I see .. the axle threads are cut to make it fit the dropout ..where the threads stop is where it naturally fits the dropout ..no other way to install it fits perfect ... 2. the motor/hub must be offset to allow for the controller to be mounted in the hub ... so the hub/motor is mounted off center in the dropout ..think this might have something to do with the disc brake which I do not have ... 3. so with the hub/motor off center in the dropout and the rim/tire designed to be directly above the motor/hub it can only be off center ...
The only way this can maybe be corrected is to "dish" the wheel ..... 1. I don't understand why I should need to dish the wheel ... this is not some strange bike ..Electra Townie ..very common .. The Kit was designed with the offset wheel .. 2. I am not sure this can be "dished" that much ...the spokes bind against the motor if you go to far..
I'm happy with the bike except for that ..Magic Pie has never let me down ... When this started I was just looking in to see if there had been and changes to make the tire/rim in the center ... Bikemad said I shouldn't have the problem it was cured years ago ... You guys say I'm the only one ... Makes me think this has some kind of problem and could be figured out ...Thanks for Listening ..Don
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Is it just me having a déjà vu moment? ???
Your MP5 should not have the offset rim problem, so there are three possible causes:
- Your wheel has not been fitted in the correct upright position and is tilted slightly to one side. The wheel will need to be refitted into the fork dropouts making sure it is in a perfectly upright position.
- The hub has more spacer washers (or Torque arms etc.) on one side than the other.
- The spokes were not originally fitted with the rim perfectly centred and will need to be adjusted to bring the rim into the correct central position.
Hi Don,
It's the hub that needs to be slightly offset to the right to allow additional room for the brake disc on the left - not the rim.
If you have a cast 16" or 18" front wheel and suspension forks, there is not much that can be done to reduce the offset. I may be possible the tweak non-suspension steel forks slightly to reduce the offset.
However, the cast 20" front wheel should be correctly centred if GM have followed my suggestions (https://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?topic=1430.msg8724#msg8724) correctly.
A spoked rim can be offset slightly to the left in relation to the motor, so it can still be correctly centred between the forks provided that the spokes have been correctly adjusted and tensioned.
If you have a spoked front wheel and your rim is not centred between the forks, it should be possible to adjust it (after making sure that the wheel has been installed perfectly upright in the fork dropouts) by adjusting the spokes to bring it into the correct position.
I would start at the valve and then slacken in turn the nipples of all 18 spokes on the side of the rim that is closest to the fork one complete turn until I reached the valve again.
I would then tighten each nipple on the 18 opposite side spokes one complete turn until I reached the valve for the second time and then check the offset.
You may have to repeat this process several times (using smaller or larger adjustments as necessary) until the rim is properly centred within the forks.
Hopefully you can understand what I'm trying to explain.
(http://www.arhservices.co.uk/GoldenMotor/emoticons/fingerscrossed.GIF)
Alan
Make sure your axle is located fully into both dropouts ensuring the wheel is perfectly upright. If it is not, you may have to file the dropouts slightly until it fits in fully.
If the rim is still offset within the forks, follow my previous instructions to get the rim properly centred within the forks and then adjust your brakes if necessary to ensure they too are properly centred and not binding.
Alan
Hi Alan ... It rained for 2 days so I took the bike apart again to check the installation ... In all the way ... I have the Lawyer Lip washers you taught me about and 2 torque arms ... The motor/hub mounts off center ...the controller side is wider the other side is closer ... The rim/tire is directly above the motor/hub assy ..so it's naturally off center ..this was bought in 2019 ... I looked into it then and assumed they were all like this ... Just recently I have been asking if the problem has been solved and I could buy me 4th one to get one that's centered ... Golden Motors so far has not been able to tell me if it's "fixed" .....
Do the new motors come with the rim laced off center to make up for the motor/hub being off center from the controller ? I can't seem to get thru to Golden Motors about this question ...Either I or they don't understand ..
Thanks Again for your help ... Wonder how many people you've helped ...Don
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The motor/hub mounts off center ...the controller side is wider the other side is closer ... The rim/tire is directly above the motor/hub assy ..so it's naturally off center ..this was bought in 2019 ... I looked into it then and assumed they were all like this ... Just recently I have been asking if the problem has been solved and I could buy me 4th one to get one that's centered ... Golden Motors so far has not been able to tell me if it's "fixed" .....
Do the new motors come with the rim laced off center to make up for the motor/hub being off center from the controller ? I can't seem to get thru to Golden Motors about this question ...Either I or they don't understand ..
Thanks Again for your help ... Wonder how many people you've helped ...Don
Hi Don,
I previously said there were three possible causes:
Your MP5 should not have the offset rim problem, so there are three possible causes:
- Your wheel has not been fitted in the correct upright position and is tilted slightly to one side. The wheel will need to be refitted into the fork dropouts making sure it is in a perfectly upright position.
- The hub has more spacer washers (or Torque arms etc.) on one side than the other.
- The spokes were not originally fitted with the rim perfectly centred and will need to be adjusted to bring the rim into the correct central position.
However, another possible cause might be that the fork legs have somehow been bent sideways.
If your rim is incorrectly centred between the motor ring flanges , I believe it will be the third option from the three I previously mentioned:
The spokes were not originally fitted with the rim perfectly centred and will need to be adjusted to bring the rim into the correct central position.
Unfortunately, I don't know how or why this has happened, but it must have occurred when the wheel was assembled, but I don't believe that it would have been done intentionally.
I suspect it may be due to incorrect loading of the hub into an automatic wheel building machine resulting the incorrect offset (or the correct offset but in the wrong direction) or perhaps the wheel has simply been laced manually by hand without the use of a rim centring jig. :-\
However, I'm still pretty sure that it will be possible to centre it correctly on your forks, purely by adjusting the spokes, assuming that your fork legs are not misaligned (i.e. both of the fork legs have not been pushed sideways in the same direction).
Did you watch this video (https://youtu.be/EZU6pmZKUnw) showing how to adjust wheel dish that Tommycat posted a link to in this post (https://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?topic=6813.msg37173#msg37173)?
If you want to check if your forks have been pushed sideways, simply reverse the wheel in the forks. If the fork dropouts are offset, the rim offset should remain the same (and in the same direction).
Check out this YouTube video (https://youtu.be/lx7BGBD0OdA) for more useful information regarding fork alignment checks.
If my suspicions are correct, the rim offset would be transferred to the opposite fork leg, confirming that the incorrect dishing of the wheel is causing the offset rim, not the forks.
After carefully studying your pictures, I noticed that you don't have any axle washers inside the dropouts. :o
Axle washers must be fitted inside the fork dropouts to prevent the axle from damaging the dropouts.
The washers should be fitted similar to the rear motor installation shown below:
(http://www.arhservices.co.uk/GoldenMotor/Axlewashers.JPG)
(http://www.arhservices.co.uk/GoldenMotor/PB211711.JPG)
If you don't have sufficient axle length to install axle washer on both sides of the dropouts, the "C" washers and the torque arms and nuts etc., I suggest that you put the tabbed washers on the inside of the dropouts and just use the torque arms on the outside of the lawyers lip "C" washers instead.
On my Smart Pie front wheel installation, I fitted the torque washers on the inside of the dropouts:
(http://www.arhservices.co.uk/GoldenMotor/Smart%20Pie/P7222322_zpsb5391729.JPG)
I also hammered over the tabs on the tabbed torque washers so that they were properly located within the dropouts (making them functional) as shown in the above photo.
Alan
P.S. I don't know how many people I've helped, I just try to help as many as I can. ;)
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Hello All .. my first video ever ..sorry about the quality ... I have rechecked all the things that could be wrong ...The motor is in the dropuots all the way ...with lawyer lip washers and torque arms on both sides .. The Axle is "spaced" properly in the dropout ..It will only go one way with the Interrupted threads on the axle ...
The only possible cure I see is "Maybe" dishing the wheel ...it needs to move 10 mm over ...Not sure it will move that far ... why should I need to "dish" it this is a common bike ... I still feel it was just designed this way .... This is a 2019 MP 5 which this problem is said to be "fixed" ...
Hope this video makes it easier to see the problem ..I DO Appreciate any suggestions or help I can get ...Here's the link to My first ever video ..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KrUQdr_yjUo
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Hi Don,
Have you tried reversing the wheel in your forks to confirm whether the offset is due to bent forks or an incorrectly dished wheel?
Once you have confirmed which of the two items is causing the problem, you will know which will need to be corrected.
Either the wheel will need to be dished correctly if its offset is wrong or the forks will need to be straightened if they are found to be bent sideways.
If, as I suspect, the wheel is not dished correctly, the spokes will need to be adjusted as I previously described if you want the wheel to be properly centred.
If you are too reluctant to attempt adjusting the spokes, and are happy to ride your bike with the offset rim, please stop worrying about it.
I also noticed in your video that you still don't have the two axle washers fitted inside the dropouts:
(https://i.imgur.com/drKO8xQ.gif) (https://i.imgur.com/drKO8xQ.gif)
These are very important as they will prevent the axle from damaging your fork dropouts.
If the washers were omitted because there was insufficient space for then to fit between the dropouts, it could also be an indication that your forks may have been squeezed together slightly, and one fork leg may have been bent inwards further than the other, adding to the offset rim problem.
You should have ~100mm (~4") gap between the inside face of both dropouts, and the dropouts should also be equidistant from the centreline of the fork steerer tube as shown below:
(https://i.imgur.com/2VPxxHx.jpg)
You may be able to insert a suitable piece of tubing or broom handle etc. into the fork steerer tube from below and then compare the distance from the outside of the tube/broom handle to each dropout to check if one fork leg is bent inwards more than the other.
If you still have the original front wheel, you can easily check if that rim is properly centred when the wheel is fitted (and when fitted back to front).
If the original rim is properly centred when fitted in both directions, the incorrect dishing of the MP5 rim must be the cause of the offset. ;)
Alan
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Thanks so much for the reply Alan ... A LOT to take in there ... I never knew about the washers going on the inside of the drop out ... I did learn from you about the Lawyer Lip washers and have then now . I did reverse the wheel when I first Built this Bike ..Bike was brand new Electra Townie .. and it reversed the off set.. plus wheel went backwards ... I still have the original wheel and That's 1 check I can do ..
When I first built this I put in a ticket and also you helped me ... I "thought" it was normal ..the motor/hub has the controller in it and is designed to work with disc brakes... makes it wider on 1 side .. mine's rim brakes .... So Fat Dumb and Happy 3/ years later I'm just checking to see if this problem had been corrected ... Upon looking into it ..seems either it's installed wrong , something wrong/weird with the bike , or needs to be "dished"
I took it apart..again ..this time with the wheel on the ground to take pictures for Golden Motors .. Axle is in all the way .. I asked should I grind the dropout or pull 1 side up some ..they told me if its in all the way that's it .. How would I even diagnosis a "crooked" wheel ? When I have some time I will flip it over And Inspect more deeply ..kinda a hassle ..gotta take a bunch of "stuff" off to flip it over ..
I think I read somewhere that the wheels can only be dished so much as the spokes will hit the motor/hub ..Have you any experience with this ?
1 last thing ..Do you know where I can get the plug on the cruise/horn switch .. I have found 1 of the crystilyte cruise control modules and want to try it .. I need the 4 pin female plug ..don't really want to buy a whole switch to get this plug ...any suggestions ..
Thank You Sooo Much for taking the time to help me and many others .. I use this to get outside as I'm sorta handicapped ..can't walk or stand long but can ride this for hours ..really has improved my health .. Don J.
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Hello Alan .. I have it stuck in my mind I must get those 2mm washers on the inside of the forks I have some 3mm ones but no 2 mm ones and I can't seem to find them on the internet ..Tried Golden Motors ..Grin Tech and a Google search ...only 3 mm ones ..Any tip where to find them? will the 3mm ones work ... I seem to remember the motor/axle fitting pretty tight ... I'm itching to take it apart and see if I can get to the bottom of the off centre wheel ... Thanks for your Help ... Don
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Do you know where I can get the plug on the cruise/horn switch .. I have found 1 of the Crystalyte cruise control modules and want to try it .. I need the 4 pin female plug ..don't really want to buy a whole switch to get this plug ...any suggestions ..
Don, I think that's a 4 pin Higo female connector but you don't need one as you can't connect the Crystalyte cruise control to the Pie's Cruise control circuit.
(https://i.imgur.com/8ZuUz5c.png)
It has to be wired into the throttle and brake circuits:
(https://i.imgur.com/Ei1EBrE.png)
Red = +5V
Black = Ground
Green = Throttle signal
Orange = Brake signal
Check out this thread on Endless-Sphere (https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=17353#p253438) for further information.
Hello Alan .. I have it stuck in my mind I must get those 2mm washers on the inside of the forks I have some 3mm ones but no 2 mm ones and I can't seem to find them on the internet ..Tried Golden Motors ..Grin Tech and a Google search ...only 3 mm ones ..Any tip where to find them? will the 3mm ones work ... I seem to remember the motor/axle fitting pretty tight ... I'm itching to take it apart and see if I can get to the bottom of the off centre wheel ... Thanks for your Help ... Don
The 3mm washers that were supplied with the kit should be fine. If the gap between the dropouts is too narrow you may need to spread the fork legs apart slightly for the washers to fit in.
Alan
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Whew ..Thanks Alan ..That's a BUNCH of help .. I will take the front wheel apart later this week ..Just to nice outside ..I ride in the morning and evening ..(usually) ..
I was thinking this Crystilyte module uses the same 3 wires the MP5 does ... Found the perfect plug on Amazon ..from your help .... Is this a waste of time ? ..can I actually destroy/hurt something trying this .. I like the cruise .."Try" to set it for 7 mph and then use the gears to keep some pressure on the petals to get a "Little" exercise .... The speed can be hard (Poor Me) to set sometimes ...while bouncing along ... My thought was the crystalyte module could adjust the speed up or down a little ... I have seen posts that say it doesn't adjust the speed much and others that say each speed adjustment is "more than a Little" ... Do you have any experience with this ..Stinks if I cannot at least try it ...$56 bucks with shipping ..Oh well Hobbys aren't always cheap ..
Thank You so much for your help ... Once I get this offset wheel thing settled either way I will stop bugging you so much .. I really like this Kit but just cannot seem to leave this offset wheel alone .. It works fine ..Just like to try it with the wheel centered ...
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Here is the page that gave me the idea ..both switches use the same 3 wires ..different colors but described as the same thing ..the MP5 has an extra wire for the horn and the crystilyte has 1 that just says ..."not used" ..
I totally understand if it wont work ..like trying to put a Chevy turn signal switch in a Ford .. Different technology ... Thanks again for all your help .... I'm sorry but I can't find anyone or a forum with the help you give ... https://electricbike.com/forum/forum/main-forum/general-discussions/91876-electronic-throttle-lock-with-brake-release-and-slight-power-adjustability
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Don, I'm not sure where you've seen "both switches use the same 3 wires ..different colors but described as the same thing", as this is certainly not the case.
The MP5 4 pin Horn/Cruise switch connector only contains one of the four required wires for the Crystalyte cruise control (the ground wire).
It does not have a +5V wire.
It does not have a throttle signal wire.
It does not have a brake signal wire.
This is why you do not need a four pin Higo connector as you cannot simply connect the Crystalyte cruise control to the MP5's 4 pin connector.
Of the four wires that the Crystalyte cruise control needs to connect into the Magic Pie 5 wiring, three are located in the 5 pin throttle connector (Throttle signal, Ground and +5V) and one in the 3 pin brake connector (Brake signal):
(https://arhservices.co.uk/GoldenMotor/MP5/MP5%20and%20SP5%20Harness%20details.JPG)
Although all four of the required wires can be found in the the MP5's main harness 10 pin connector, I have been unable to find any 10 pin plugs and sockets that would match the MP5 harness connectors.
It look like connecting that cruise control to the Magic Pie wiring harness is not going to be straightforward, and it could require cutting open the existing MP5 wiring to make the required connections.
It may be possible to solder the three throttle wires directly into the MP5's throttle unit or splice them into the throttle cable to get the cruise control to function, but without the brake signal connection it would have to be cancelled manually every time it was used, or it would automatically resume at the previously set cruising speed when the brakes were released.
I haven't tried a Crystalyte cruise control, but you can see one being used in this video (https://youtu.be/1-sCrih-WkQ), but I don't know if it would behave the same with a Magic Pie controller. :-\
Alan
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Hello Alan ... Well you saved me the $$$ of buying that plug and the hassle of soldiering wires ... I had looked at the same wiring diagram you showed me and ..I Thought ..on the 4 pin plug for the Cruise/Horn module that Pin #1 was Throttle signal ..it says Cruise Signal Now I guess their different .. Pin # 4 says Battery ...so that's not 5 volts but rather battery voltage ?? .. I watched the video and cannot tell how much each push stepped up the power doesn't matter I cannot use it ...
So ...I "Might" have the answer to the off center wheel ..after you told me about the washers that go inside the forks I was just looking at the forks and thinking how those washers would sit ..While looking I "May" have noticed something ...1 fork seems/looks ? like it might be Bent at the very bottom ...Just above where it bolts in ... And thats the side the wheel is to close to ... Perhaps 3 years ago when I installed this I tightened the controller side first ? and then when I tightened the other side it bent ? Here's a picture .. I still cannot be sure ..gonna take it apart this weekend ..
I sent a message to Golden motors about the washers ...4 bucks apiece ..OK but then nearly $20 for shipping ... I gotta think on that one ... Maybe I can trade this useless Cruise module ..Thank You Sooo much again for your help ..There's nothing more I'd like to be done with this "problem" and not bugging you ...Your a really good Guy helping all these people ...Don J.
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Hello All .... Alan Hi ... I have gotten a pic from Golden Motors of a wheel from the top view ... I blew it up and it looks like "maybe" the Rim is spoked off center of the Motor/Hub to the controller side ... This would explain why mine is off ... as mine is spoked with the center of the rim directly above the center of the Motor/Hub assy. ....
I am really not sure about this from this picture ...In you experience ...Does it seem toe Rims are spoked a little to the controller side of the hub/motor assy ??
I have received the washers for the inside of the fork legs and will install them next week ... I have just finished a repair on my car and have had enough "mechanicing" for a while ... The Bike works perfectly the car we have to wait and see... Thanks So Much for any advice You Can Give Me .. Don
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Hi Don,
That picture shows a front wheel with its rim correctly centred on the axle instead of the motor.
Yours should look the same as the one in the photo, but you need to adjust the spokes as previously explained:
I would start at the valve and then slacken in turn the nipples of all 18 spokes on the side of the rim that is closest to the fork one complete turn until I reached the valve again.
I would then tighten each nipple on the 18 opposite side spokes one complete turn until I reached the valve for the second time and then check the offset.
You may have to repeat this process several times (using smaller or larger adjustments as necessary) until the rim is properly centred within the forks.
You may also want to readjust your front brakes after the rim has been correctly centred. ;)
I'm looking forward to seeing a picture of your front wheel correctly centred within the forks.
Alan
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I'm pretty sure your tired of hearing about this ... Golden Motors has been working with me too on this off center deal ... They sent me a picture of a wheel assy. When I blew up the pic I could see the rim was spoked off center to the Hub/motor assy . to the Controller side of the wheel assy.
Mine is spoked with the rim directly above the motor/hub assy. Soooo Finally we agreed that is the reason ... I have been totally happy with this kit ..ride it almost every day ... I was just checking in to see if this issue had been corrected from when I installed it in 2019 ..
When I first installed this you/Bikemad helped me with the off center brake adjustment problem and it "seemed" to me this wheel was just the normal one you got ...
Perhaps I will try "dishing" the wheel some day .... I ruined my first kit messing with the spokes so I'm sorta scared of that ..It works I ride most every day ... I really appreciate all you have taught me ..about the "Lawyer Lips" and the other washers I needed inside the fork ..and how to set up the brakes ..and battery stuff and the list goes on ....Thanks So Much ...Really
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geesh ...I just looked at your reply from a while back where you told me this was the problem ..sorry I didn't pay attention ...
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Hello , I have been fighting this offset wheel for quite a while ..It has come down to the wheel must be dished to get the offset out .... Tonight I tried to adjust the spokes ...didn't go well ..
I loosened all of them on the side I wanted the rim to move "from" ..1 turn ...then went to tighten all of them on the other side to pull the wheel over..They all got the 1 turn but were pretty tight .. If the wheel moved over at all it wasn't much ..
Now the Problem ... I decided to go 1 more turn ...went to loosen the side the rim needs to move from and found that they were mostly pretty loose ...still I took 1 turn out loosening them all evenly ....
So .. I went to tighten the other side to pull the wheel over and all/most of the spokes were pretty tight already ... I got the 1 turn of tightening on them but their real tight ..can there be damage from overtightening ?
Worst of all the loosening side was still loose ...It seemed like the rim didn't move at all ...The one side spokes are really tight and the other had some finger loose ....I retightened the loose ones 1 1/2 turns just to get it reasonably tight ... So in the end I have 1 side tightened 2 turns and 1 side loosened 1/2 turn ...
I read somewhere about "spoke bind" ..I have no Idea what this is but thought it might have something to do with it ....
I took the bike apart to put the washers on the inside of the forks and went ahead and tried this "wheel dishing" while I was at it ...I just Hope I haven't made any new problems ..
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Don, I have merged your last post into this "Offset Front Wheel ..." thread to keep everything together for easier reference to photos of the problem and advice previously given.
As your rim is not wanting to move further sideways by adjusting the spokes, I'm beginning to think that the problem may be the forks - not the wheel.
Did you carry out any of the previously suggested checks while the wheel was removed to confirm whether it was the wheel or the forks that was causing the offset?
Hi Don,
Have you tried reversing the wheel in your forks to confirm whether the offset is due to bent forks or an incorrectly dished wheel?
Once you have confirmed which of the two items is causing the problem, you will know which will need to be corrected.
Either the wheel will need to be dished correctly if its offset is wrong or the forks will need to be straightened if they are found to be bent sideways.
If, as I suspect, the wheel is not dished correctly, the spokes will need to be adjusted as I previously described if you want the wheel to be properly centred.
If you are too reluctant to attempt adjusting the spokes, and are happy to ride your bike with the offset rim, please stop worrying about it.
I also noticed in your video that you still don't have the two axle washers fitted inside the dropouts:
(https://i.imgur.com/drKO8xQ.gif) (https://i.imgur.com/drKO8xQ.gif)
These are very important as they will prevent the axle from damaging your fork dropouts.
If the washers were omitted because there was insufficient space for then to fit between the dropouts, it could also be an indication that your forks may have been squeezed together slightly, and one fork leg may have been bent inwards further than the other, adding to the offset rim problem.
You should have ~100mm (~4") gap between the inside face of both dropouts, and the dropouts should also be equidistant from the centreline of the fork steerer tube as shown below:
(https://i.imgur.com/2VPxxHx.jpg)
You may be able to insert a suitable piece of tubing or broom handle etc. into the fork steerer tube from below and then compare the distance from the outside of the tube/broom handle to each dropout to check if one fork leg is bent inwards more than the other.
If you still have the original front wheel, you can easily check if that rim is properly centred when the wheel is fitted (and when fitted back to front).
If the original rim is properly centred when fitted in both directions, the incorrect dishing of the MP5 rim must be the cause of the offset. ;)
Alan
To check if your forks have been pushed sideways, simply reverse the wheel in the forks. If the fork dropouts are offset, the rim offset should remain the same (and in the same direction)[/i].
Check out this YouTube video (https://youtu.be/lx7BGBD0OdA) for more useful information regarding fork alignment checks.
I have just been studying all of your photos again, and upon close inspection, it would appear that the forks may be the cause.
I pasted one of your photos into a drawing package and then rotated the image until the axle was perfectly horizontal and the wheel perfectly vertical.
I then added some vertical lines from the inside of the dropouts and here is the result:
(https://i.imgur.com/9KqjGHH.jpg)
The dropouts do not appear to be equidistant from the dotted fork centreline as they should be, and the outwards slope of the fork legs appear to be very different between the left and right fork legs when compared to the vertical yellow lines.
It looks to me as if the left fork leg has definitely been bent inwards as the fork leg is almost parallel with the vertical line instead of being angled out at the bottom like the right fork leg!
When I superimposed a mirrored version of the right fork leg directly over the left fork leg (mirrored exactly on the fork centreline) you can clearly see a big difference in the dropout positions indicated by the distance between the red and yellow vertical lines on the left:
(https://i.imgur.com/IwDA29f.jpg)
Even if the wheel in the original was not perfectly aligned and perpendicular to the camera lens, I think it is close enough to show that the fork dropouts are not equally offset from the fork centreline.
I think you may have to take a much closer look at your forks.
Alan
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Hi Alan ... Thanks for the reply ..just finished rechecking the tightness of everything I took loose and setting the brake up ... I got the washers in without removing the wiring ..I did look at the fork legs ..look straight to me also checked the lawyer lip washers you told me about and the 2 Torque arms ....
Everything seemed fine ...and ..I already had the Theory/Idea that the Spokes needed adjusting so I didn't try the original wheel ... Golden Motors sent me a Pic of a wheel where the rim is offset from the hub/motor and that's why I thought mine needed adjusting ...
Which side do you call the left side ? From sitting on the bike or from head on ? I guess I should have tried the original rim in the dropout it might have showed something ..some type of clue ..
Why do you think the rim didn't dish any from the adjustments ? And more important ..should I reset them to "factory" settings ? right now the controller side is 2 turns tighter ..nearly stripped ... and the other side is 1/2 turn loose from stock ..
Did you see the picture from Golden motors where the rim was offset from the wheel ? Compared to mine that is ... I had to blow it up to see it ..
Thanks again ... I didn't want to mess with this ..but while I had the wheel apart ...Thanks Again ..Don J.
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How would you know if the wheel isnt in the dropout even ? causing "tilt" As soon as you turn the handlebars a little the wheel does tilt some .. I have had this in and out several times for tires and tubes ..It always goes back the same I have used a Mallet and 2X4 to check the seating .... I ride this a lot ..the tire doesn't seem to wear weird ..the steering goes straight .... Doesn't "Feel" tilted ..however that would feel ..
Just looking at all the answers to this that I can .... I do remember back in 2019 when I built this bike asking ..you..in this forum about this problem and specifically about the dragging brakes and you explained "I thought " the wheels were built this way for the Disc Brake ...You also explained how to shim the Rim Brake Pads to work ....
So I was going along from late 2019 just fine ...Then just for "fun" I asked If Golden Motors had found a Fix for the off center wheel ... And to my surprise it seems I'm the only one with this issue ..
Guess I should try 1 Diagnosis at a time ...maybe taking the wheel off ...again and trying the stock wheel is the next best move .. Perhaps that will tell me something ... I do remember reversing the MP5 when I first Installed it and it was offset the other way ..and ran backwards ..
Thanks for your help almost would just like to go back to before I messed with it ..The over/undetightened spokes are my worry now ...Have I made the Problem Worse ???
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Hello All ... Here is the E-mail I just sent to Golden Motors ... Maybe someone here can help ..Thinking maybe the axle isn't clamping in like it should
Have it apart again ..3rd time in 3 days ..still trying to figure this out ..It (the Bike ) did a couple of crazy things on the 2 test rides .. I seems "Maybe" the axle isn't holding still even with the 2 torque arms ... I set up the brakes ..then they start binding after a short while and I have to readjust them ...either I'm not doing something right with the brakes or ...the wheel assy. is slipping out on one side or going in more on the other ..either one of these would cause wheel tilt ...
I cannot see the tilt if it's there but just wonder if it's happening ... On the second time I took it apart I was very careful to tighten both sides evenly and watch that the axle didn't move when tightened .. I was very happy as it "Looked" like the offset wasn't as much ... I even had to set up the brakes with different washers for the changed distance ...
When I pushed the bike out the door for the test ride ..the front wheel fell off a 2-3 inch drop from the sidewalk ..even before I got on the brakes seemed to be dragging ... Can't ride like that ..So I redid the brakes and went for a 40 minute ride ..maybe 6 miles ...I had stopped once to turn around and felt the brakes dragging again .. seems the wheel got closer on the non-controller side ..I disconnected the front brake to get home ..
Thinking "Maybe" one side is slipping down..hard to picture with the weight of the bike on it ....Or Maybe 1 side is going into the dropout more .."somehow" and making the wheel "tilt" ... I am just trying to figure this out now ...Sure would be nice to talk to someone about this ... I have a Drs. Appointment Today so I may not be able to work on it much ..Sure would like to "Fix" it ... 561-337 8299 ..
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Welll ...My next try is gonna be to attempt to "clamp" the motor in the dropout better ... as my "testing" has led me to believe that somehow either one side is falling out of the dropout or the other is somehow going in further ... I had the wheel pretty centered and it went off center or "tilted" on a short ride ..
Gonna use the washers Golden motors sent me for the inside of the forks to make custom deep Lawyer Lip washers ..Just to make sure their wide enough for the lawyer lip depth .. It looks close with the ones I had... Maybe? it was bottoming out before it clamped ...
Think I'm going to rough up all the mating surfaces for a better grip .. I have some Tabbed washers I can use on the inside of the fork ..
This is all I can think to do ...Open for suggestions ... I had it pretty centered and it somehow moved to where it's been for 2 years by itself on a short ride ...
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Which side do you call the left side ? From sitting on the bike or from head on ?
The left side is the controller side (on the left when sitting on the bike).
The over/undetightened spokes are my worry now ...Have I made the Problem Worse ???
As long as your spokes are all tightened evenly it should not be a problem, and any rim offset should have been improved, even if it was only by a small amount.
I tend to tighten my spokes as tight as possible (without rounding off the flats on the nipples) to prevent them from working loose.
If the distance between the rim and the forks is changing then the wheel is definitely moving in the dropouts. I suspect that the axle nuts and torque arm fixings may need to be tightened more securely to prevent the axle from moving.
You are the only one who is in a position to closely inspect the forks, dropouts and axle fixings to try and locate the actual cause of the problem.
try swapping the "C" washers from one side to the other to see if it affects the offset, as it is possible that one may have been reshaped differently to the other, causing the axle to locate further into one dropout.
You may have to file the dropout slight on one side to allow the axle to go in further to help centre the rim better.
Unfortunately, pictures do not always show things correctly due to differences in distance, perspective and lens distortion. The picture from Golden Motor has not been taken from the ideal position as the rim was not perfectly aligned with the centre of the camera's lens and therefore appears to be more offset than it actually is:
(https://i.imgur.com/vSUn4cT.jpg)
As you can see from the vertical line above, the wheel is leaning slightly to the left in relation to the camera lens, making the rim look like it is offset even more to the left.
It is difficult to compare the photo of your wheel with this photo as your wheel was much closer to the camera, and also has a tyre fitted which obscures more of the hub, making the offset rim less noticeable.
Think I'm going to rough up all the mating surfaces for a better grip
Applying a thin smear of coarse grinding paste on the mating flat surfaces of the torque arms, washers and dropouts can help to prevent any movement when they are properly tightened, as the coarse particles bite into the metal and help to lock the surfaces together. ;)
Alan
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Thanks ..I tried rough sandpaper and it didnt do much .. Have a little coarse stone I can put in the drill .. Did the Job .... Wish me luck ... here's a pic of it just sitting in the drop out ..pretty centered and straight ...Just gotta take my time and clamp it down good ..I Think ...I hope ..
Included a Pic of my "shop" ..good thing I'm not married ... Eh
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I Need to Apologize for all the trouble I caused ..Complaining about this thing when all along you had told me what the problem was and I refused to believe it ... I am sorry if I upset you or anyone and would be even if it wasn't all because of my stupidity ...I thank you for all the Patience you've shown and of course the help you tried to give and I wouldn't believe ..
Turns out it was tilted in the forks .. when I laid the motor in the dropouts it was straight ..looked over everything and put it together ..."Great" ..first bump when I got outside before I even got on the brake started rubbing ...should have been a clue ..I readjusted the brakes and went for a short 20 minute ride 3? miles ...Had to stop for traffic near the end and noticed the brakes rubbing ..again ..looked at the wheel and sure enough it was "Tilted" again ... Either 1 side was going into the dropout more or the other was slipping down ..seems weird it would do that with all the weight on it ...
Next time I took it apart the Left side seemed to drop a little when I loosened the axle nut .."Another Clue" ........ Decided I need to try something different ..... Used the Washers from Golden Motors that were meant for the inside of the fork ..I used them in place of the "special" Lawyer Lip " washers ...They have more gripping area ..I had to "modify" the lawyer lipps a little with a Dremel to make them fit ...
Used a Tabbed washer for the inside of the forks ..Used a Coarse stone in a drill to rough up all mating surfaces on the bike and the washers for a "better?" grip ...
That was a Week ago ..I have ridden it 5-6 times and it is still centered ... Yaaaaa !!! ..After over 2 years from my pighead ignorance ...what a difference ... I thought it was "Normal" for all this time ..Rode the heck out of it ....And will continue to do so ..
Thanks so much to all that put up with my Crap thru all this .. I am really embarrassed and sorry to have caused so much trouble ... Perhaps my mistakes will help someone else ...Don J.
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Hello DiverDon;
Are you using torque arms to keep your axle nuts tight?
Constant acceleration and brakeing twist the axle back and forth
eventually loosening it (once time catastrophically for me, but that's another story.)
https://goldenmotor.bike/product-category/parts-and-accessories/torque-arm/
You can find them for much less, or if you're handy you can make a better one.
I took a flat plate about 2"x4" of 1mm steel. I drilled a hole near one end that
was the diameter of my nut. (Not here so I can't measure) Then I filed (dremeled) the
nut shape into the hole so it barely fits over the nut.
I chose to make one point of the nut point 15 degrees off the center line of the plate.
(That way turning it over gave a +/- 30 degree offset. Just arbitrary)
Then I shaped it so I could put a screw through the fender hole, and finally
trimmed the excess material away.
I spray painted mine gold for accent.
Repeated for the other side.
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Thanks for the reply ... Yea I Have 1 on each side .... Everything is working PERFECT now .. Just went for a ride in the pre hurricane wind 25-30 mph ...no sweat ..I set the cruise to 7-8 mph and use the gears to keep some pressure on the petals ...cruising along right into the wind ...The Magic Pie just laughs at it ...
Thanks for your reply ..I have found the torque arms from "Grim Tech" are the best ones I could find ..