GoldenMotor.com Forum
General Category => General Discussions => Topic started by: mustangman on August 17, 2007, 04:26:23 AM
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I was thinking about the possiblility of Golden producing a "Golden Olympian" hub motor to compete with brand 'c' 5 series motor. The first thing any manufacturer needs to know if a market has enough demand for the product, so I would like you to voice your opinion, any suggestions and above all would you actually buy one if it is produced. This is only a kind of poll and no guarantee the motor will be produced, think of it as a type of market research. :)
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Before I voice an opinion please do this: get a price for me on the M-Wheel-12 36 volt 400 watt brushless motor. If you have difficulty or delay in getting a quote on this wheel then what difficulty do you think there might be in securing the development of an "Olympian" motor. I'm not trying to discourage or belittle your notion but I think we must face the reality of the situation we have at hand and work to improve it before reaching for the sky. :( :'(
Besides in the new world I expect everyone to have a fully equipped machine shop in their garage so they can make their on stuff and tell the rest of the world to get flannel underwear. ;D
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In business, you must do "market research" to see if their is indeed a demand for the product you are going to produce. This is the purpose of this question. Who will know the answer if nobody asks the question? Usually companies pay thousands of dollars for this kind information(are you listening Philip) we as a group can toss this question around for free and if the response if favorable, maybe Golden will consider producing it. :)
P.S. A "Golden Olypian" motor is named in honor of the 2008 Olympic games to be held in China. Its a motor that can handle upto 5,000 WATTS and is rated under the 750 watt limit set for "consumer goods" motors. This motor is to "level the playing field" with Crystalhighprice 5 series hub motors.
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Don't you think a switch on the regen controller to allow it to operate in standard mode, with all different battery types and at all supply voltages would be a great idea or how about this, a 15" x 7 or 8 inch rim with a 30,000 watt hub motor like the 400 watt M-Wheel-12, only bigger?
Forget your wimpy "Olympian" hub motor. ;D (nay-nay-na-nay-nay) ;D I want a hub motor I can put on all four wheels that will blow the doors off that rich guy's Lamborghini down the street. Talk about your market research... That's market research! ;D
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What is a Golden Olympian hub motor?
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It's a term mustangman made up. Essentially it would be a high wattage (1kW?) motor, where the motor is underrated on its specification sheet to read 500W. It meets the nominal power rating for trouble free import as a bicycle kit, but can be "overclocked" for folks wanting to joyride at 30mph+ (or perhaps to tackle tough hills at speed).
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The biggest problem (as I see it) with this, is compared to the market they are serving (mainland China) even a huge interest level in this small market would be negligible. So unless there is a high demand for an "olympian" hub motor from within the PRC, you won't see one.
If you look at the numbers the US e-bike market is just tiny, and most US based e-bike manufactureres have a fairly short lifespan. I believe Currie just went into bankruptcy protection for reorganization, and many other e-bike firms have closed their doors or had to do similar reorganizations. The top e-bike and e-kit sellers in the US probably sell no more than 20,000-30,000 units in a year. Compare that to the domestic PRC market of up to 10 MILLION units sold per year. This is completely reversed from most markets, where getting a piece of the US market pie (with western consumer spending being what it is) is a major thing. The e-bike market in the US is for use as a toy, a hobby, or an esoteric mode of transportation. In China, the e-bike is a normal transportation option.
I have become convinced this is why we are seeing the customer service issues that surface on this forum. Phillip is working multi-thousand unit orders for the native market, but every westerner he sells to is a major headache. Sure the mark-up potential is much higher, but with the local market he clearly makes up for it in volume. If he ever sets up a system which is mostly automated for ordering and shipping, and eliminates the in-transit damages he'll have a high mark-up market that doesn't take so much of his attention--the best of both worlds.
I think that is about the best we can hope for.
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They will not make one..
Should, but will not..
UNLESS
An american Company makes a large order for them so that they already have the necessary tooling.
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I think there is a misperception that since China has a rep for doing high volume at low cost there is no other option. Fortunately, however, in the case of a hub motors the design was the challenge while the parts necessary to be manufactured do not require high volume tooling.
Look at a Crystalyte or Golden stator yoke and rotor for instance. Every single innards of a Golden motor I have seen have a different configuration; some of which lend themselves very easily to low volume, even one-of production. In fact I do not see anything that requires more than a lathe and a casting for low volume production, not only right here in the good old USA but in almost anyone's garage or basement.
The mathematics to determine number of teeth and number of poles and number of turns is well known and published. Controllers and sensors are available from many different sources at good prices so if it is a an "Olympian" hub motor you want or a Lamborghini eater then its really only a matter of commitment.
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Well then take the word "tooling" and replace it with the word "training".
My perception is that 99% of chinese companies will not take a chance to spend the little monies that market research would cost. Much less retrain their employees to wind a hub differently.
It is also my "perception" that it takes a loooong time to do things there. They arent known to set themselves outside of the crowd.
I imagine that the standard hub motor took 20 years. Maybe a Western Company went to a electric motor company and said here please make me 100 of these, they worked they sold so every other factory in that town now also makes them.
But to get them to step out of the crowd and spend some $$ on research....
Well its just an odds game but I would bet that it doesnt come about.
If you want one made talk to Don Grube..
Keep in mind I have alot of "perceptions" it doesnt make them right or true, just the way I see things.
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If their is legitimate demand, and there must be one otherwise the competition wouldn't have built the 5 series motor. I am just asking everyone "IF Golden Builds it will you buy it," and any suggestions that you would make before production begins such as myelectricbikes 30,000 watt version, etcetera..... This is an opinion poll and that is what market research is!
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I think instead I would buy one of these.
I don't want to cut my own throat in the business but I found these the other night and you can use your existing gears.
http://cgi.ebay.com/500w-Motorised-Electric-Motor-Bike-Bicycle-Kit-e-bike_W0QQitemZ220139235909QQihZ012QQcategoryZ7297QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Very smart idea.. Before I got into the hub kit thing I looked all around for this exact thing I even designed a one way bearing in MS paint lol..
The hub motors are very efficient but somewhat limited. These kits I found on ebay are expensive but I'll bet on a straight away you could hit 45 mph and you could climb any hill just change gears.
Its not stealth like the hub motors, its most likely a little noisy, but with the ability to change your gears I think it may be more efficient. I would probably mount the motor in a more conspicuous place and add a jackshaft, raise the voltage etc.
I am going to order one as soon as I find a US dealer to try it out.
www.ampedbikes.com
8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)
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But with that kit, you lose all your front gear ratios and turn your 21 or 24 speed into a 7 or 8 speed bike. The kicker is that you must have the proper tools to remove/install the crank, add chain and basically permanently modify your bike vs the golden hub motor that you just have to re-install your front wheel. I will take the hub motor anyday!
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I, myself, would go with one of these: Bicycle Kits (http://www.electricscooterparts.com/bicyclekits.html), available right here in the USA from a very well known, low cost and high quality company in the redwoods of California, if I were to deviate from a hub motor.
...also motor and roller are available on eBay (http://cgi.ebay.com/ETC-EXPRESS-POWER-PACK-MOTOR-WITH-ATTACHED-ROLLER-NEW_W0QQitemZ270088136642QQcmdZViewItem)
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Well you guys were talking about speed.. so I thought I would throw that in there.
Also for going fast and real long range ,I have 3 of these
(http://www.motoredbikes.com/phpBB2/userpix/1904_CRW_6248b1_1.jpg)
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That kit would have worked perfectly with my recumbent Bike E. The Bike E uses a 3 speed rear hub instead of a front derailer so it wouldn't loose any gear capacity. I looked at the Eco Speed kit ( http://www.ecospeed.net/index.html ) which is a mid drive system but the price was way too high, $1500. I like the way this kit uses a torington bearing on the crank arm for the no pedaling while under electric power.
I too was thinking of mid drive designs until I found out how easy it was to use a hub drive kit.
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So that is how you get more power out of a Harley, put pedals on it.(http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/Smileys/default/grin.gif)
You don't see too many seats like that every day. It looks painful, do you ride it like that?
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heh that ones not mine, I don't have any pics on hand so I just grabbed one off of the internet..
But yeah those seats are super comfy.. Anyone thats been around for 30+ years had to have had one at one time or another.. I did a 72 mile ride with a friend the other weekend.
used about 1/4 of a gallon of gas, motor is $100 80cc ebay kit 37 mph max all out lol.
Oh yeah and really quiet. I was thinking of getting the regenerative controller and putting a hub kit on one!
hehe true hybrid
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Like these: KINGS MOTOR BIKES - BICYCLE ENGINE KIT (http://www.kingsmotorbikes.com/Engine_Kit1.htm), Golden Eagle (http://www.bikeengines.com/index.htm), BICYCLE ENGINE KIT (higher price) (http://www.kmotorizedbikes.com/), and BICYCLE ENGINE KIT (...with even higher price) (http://www.chrishill.myknet.org/)?
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Thats them.. I bought the forst one off of ebay for $80 then $120 shiping lol.
Then I looked on Craiglist and found a local guy and got 2 kits for $240
they say 80cc but I think they are actually around 60cc but still pulls me around all weekend for $1 in gas.
Weekends are for my gas bike.
Weekdays are for my electrics!
Someday they may come together like a reese's!
someone got their electric in my gas!
Someone got their gas in my electric!
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So put one of your hub kits on the front wheel with a regen controller and you could get the electric out of the gas.
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Crossed my mind as well... Only problem is that the hub motor can generate far more voltage and current than the controller can handle so that all of the sudden it freewheels if you back off of the throttle too fast or too much. You probably could not go slow enough on gas to keep the controller from shutting down unless you rigged the electric throttle somehow.
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These kits I found on ebay are expensive but I'll bet on a straight away you could hit 45 mph and you could climb any hill just change gears.
Its not stealth like the hub motors, its most likely a little noisy, but with the ability to change your gears I think it may be more efficient. I would probably mount the motor in a more conspicuous place and add a jackshaft, raise the voltage etc.
Except that the gearing is all wrong in these kits(edit: except the most expensive 48v 1kw kit due to the smaller motor sprocket and two piece crank). These motors output at 1500-3000rpm, there is simply not enough gearing in the bicycle drivetrain for that rpm. They would be extremely inefficient compared to a hub motor.
Those motors have to be geared to output 200-400rpm before reaching the bicycle drivetrain. That would be a winner.
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I appreciate all the discussion about the motor types, howeverI am interested in one thing: If golden motor builds a "golden olympian" hub motor(simular to a crystalmight 5303 series motor but even better) would you buy it??
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I appreciate all the discussion about the motor types, howeverI am interested in one thing: If golden motor builds a "golden olympian" hub motor(simular to a crystalmight 5303 series motor but even better) would you buy it??
No, I wouldnt, unless battery prices/technology improves. If maximum speed is of concern one should obviously get a combustion engine. With current battery technology/prices theres little incentive(imo) for a high performance electric motor when there are combustion engines.
In fact Im only looking at electric motors because combustion engines are glaringly illegal where I live (250/500w electric motors are still technically illegal here but nobody is going to notice/care).
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I don't think I would want to sacrifice hill climbing power for an extra 10 mph..
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I would buy one as long as its quieter than the clite (which can be heard 3 blocks away) lighter would be nice as well, super efficency is not that important with a motor this size as you would have to go with lithium for the ness Amps + for off road (dirt trail)hill climbing.
Here in Canada I would be the exception as clite can't even sell their 5 series here, because of the heavy weight,loud noise and ness 48V min 35A min to operate the 5 series and its over legal on road wattage here.
In the states in peak summer sales season clite allways sells out of 5 series so I think the market is deffinately there, especially if its a cheaper priced product.
good luck
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Not really interested. As iron_monkey mentioned, the battery tech is at least 5 years shy of providing what is needed. I'm living in a pancake flat part of central California, so there is probably no more than 10' of terrain change over my 7 mile ride in to work. I'm fortunate not to need the power for hills. That is where the battery juice goes really fast, and the difference in power levels is most noticeable.
-Mike
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I also live in a flat area of California, however, I have a need for speed !! 30 MPH to be exact(California"s Max Speed for Electric Bikes) If there was a Golden product that went that fast,(maybe a little faster) I would buy it!! :D