Can't get VEC300 to run motor or connect software to program.

[Electronic nut]

Hello.  I am having a terrible day,      WEEK.  I bought vec300 and motor and there was no installation instructions with it at all.  Before I explain all that I have tried, I will just say HELP.  If this message goes through, I'll add to it.  Thanks in advance.  John

[Electronic nut]

Well it looks like I did do something right.  I got signed in.  OK, I cannot get connected to my VEC-300 program port.  I have tried contacting Andy at Goldenmotors and he does reply with some of my questions but NOT my major request.  I downloaded the software from the VEC-300 site and have attempted to load everything onto my xp.  I can get the PI-800 software to load but when I select the port, I cannot connect.  I have tried comm1 rs232 cables, straight cables, null modem cables, usb adapters, loaded 3 different usb drivers from the three different usb to rs232 cables,  I am using the controller and motor and it is working but not how I need it to work.  I have two separate solar panel sets of 8 panels that are connected to two separate Morningstar mppt chargers that charge two set of 4 AGM 175 Amp batteries.  The batteries connect to VEC-300  that runs the motor that is connected to a 5000 watt generator that is connected to a control system for house Air Conditioning and Heating.  All systems are controlled by Allen-Bradley PLC-504 controller.  I do all the plc programming using rslinx and Allen-Bradley PanelView HMI's.  I have been doing programming at a major Bakery Co. on all there computer equipment.   But I have never had as much trouble getting connected to something as simple as a VEC-300 controller.  It is really embarrassing to have to admit defeat.  If only goldenmotors would send out an exact and precise procedure on how to connect to this controller.  OR let us know if the fact is that NO-ONE has ever been able to connect to it yet.  It might sound like I frustrated.              Can someone Please Help.
Thanks for your time.   
John

[Bikemad]

I have tried comm1 rs232 cables, straight cables, null modem cables, usb adapters, loaded 3 different usb drivers from the three different usb to rs232 cables.

Hi John andto the forum.

This might sound like a stupid question but have you tried the correct GM USB programming cable?


I'm just wondering whether this might be the reason it is not working for you.

I have heard of similar connection problems with the Vectrix electric scooter as programming through the CANBUS via USB adapters only seems to work properly with one particular make of adapter, and they're about $250 to buy.

I suggest you email David at GM China and see if he can explain the connection technique.

I spent ages initially trying to connect to the Vector controller on the Magic Pie 4 using the correct software, driver and USB lead. It was easy once I discovered the correct technique of trying to connect to the controller and waiting for the time out error message before turning on the power to the controller.

Alan
 

[Electronic nut]

Hey Alan, Thanks for the reply.  Yes I did order the cable from GM when I purchased the controller and motor.  Your last sentence may be the secret.  I'll try that procedure right now.  I have always had the controller energized before trying to connect. 

[Electronic nut]

Well I tried. No luck.  Im going to try to send pic of cable I bought extra from GM so I could program.  Never sent pic before

[Electronic nut]

Now I can finally feel like I'm back in the drivers seat of helping others.  I got my system set so I can connect to the VEC-300 controller.  After sending messages back and forth to GM, after asking a 100 questions on Skype to Andy at Gm,  I FINALLY got it to work.  I had downloaded the software that was listed under VEC-300 on Goldenmotors.com  This PI-800 never worked.  It also had Drivers that I loaded.  Never worked.       Hold-ON  I'll get there.  I mentioned a 100 times that I was trying three different laptops with XP on them and nothing was mentioned that the PI-800 program would not work with XP.  I finally go a 64 bit HP, downloaded the software, didn't need to download drivers.  just the PI-800 and it connected the very first click.  It's wonderful.  Now I can change a few settings and it will work fine as a generator motor.
Thanks for your help Alan.  Hope you can use this info to help others so they don't have to spend 3 months figuring it out.

[Bikemad]

Nothing was mentioned that the PI-800 program would not work with XP.

I program all of my Vector controllers with the PI-800 program using either an HP or Targa laptop, both of which are running windows XP Home Edition, and as long as I follow the correct sequence to connect, I don't experience any problems with either of them.

Anyway, I'm glad you've managed to sort your problem and have been able to set it to suit your particular application.

Alan
 

[Electronic nut]

Well Alan, I thought my problems were over.  I got all my changes ready to make and tried to connect.  No luck.  This is with the 64 bit Window 8.1 and the same cable that worked perfectly the first time.  No luck. 
I noticed in your last reply that you had a "correct connecting sequence"  I clicked it and printed out the sequence.  I had never received anything like that from GM.  Did you get that info from some document from GM?  Is this sequence the same that you use to connect to a VEC-300?  I also noticed that your picture of your cable is completely different than the one they sent to me.  Should I try to purchase your type PI-400?  Does the PI-400 have this CHIP you mentioned?  I guess I still have a ways to go until I finally collect enough info to finally use this $900 investment.  I'm still very frustrated that GM does not seem to care if I get the proper documentation or not.  Really sad.
But, Thank You for the help you have given so far.  I sure need more to come
John

[Bikemad]

Hi John,

Regarding the USB lead, I assume that is the correct lead as it is shown with the Vector controllers on the GM website, but you would need to confirm this with GM China.

The sequence I use on the internal vector controllers was initially discovered by accident while trying to connect with the battery permanently connected. GM had told me that the Magic Pie 4 and Smart Pie 4 Vector controllers needed the battery connected (whereas the earlier controllers needed the battery disconnected while programming) so I made sure it was connected and turned on before I tried to connect. After several failed attempts to connect, I turned the battery off and the controller instantly connected and updated the software.

I simply experimented with it until I found the best way of connecting and then documented the sequence of events that worked every time.

Alan
 

[Electronic nut]

First, thank you for your persistence.  I'm thinking I would have given up on me a while back.   I am using the controller and it is running my air conditioning.  I'm just concerned that the controller allows the motor to run for extended periods of time that allows the temperature of the motor to reach 150 degrees.  I wanted to set a parameter in the controller to shut it down before getting too hot.   Also I am going to try and contact GM and order the PI-400 cable like your picture shows.  As you can tell by my picture, it is a makeshift looking thing with hot glue on two of the plugs and a different adapter plug in the middle.  I don't know how long the VEC-300 controller has been out, but surely someone else has had the same issues.    Oh Yeah, about the battery being connected when connecting program cable,   My cable powers up the controller through the usb connection.  With no battery connected to the controller there is no red flashing lite.  The minute I connect the program cable, the red lite starts flashing 16  times.   I have also tried by connecting the batter and then connecting the program cable with no difference.  After I try any of the above connections.   I will have trouble getting the motor to run again.  It is like it went into program mode and then won't change back.  I have to apply battery about 6 times with key off and key on to finally get it back to working again. 
You don't have to reply, I'll just order the PI-400 cable and try that. 
Thanks again
John

[Electronic nut]

I have given up on getting the software to work.  I ordered a new $60 cable from goldenmotors and when it came, it had the wrong plug on the end.  It had a 4 pin instead of 6 pin.  So I guess I don't need to try any further to connect because I finally found out what is happening.  The motor has a bad spot that if it stops in this one spot, it will not restart until the shaft is rotated off on that bad spot.  I have marked the bad spot on the shaft and the motor will start and stop 20, 40, or 60 times with no problem.  BUT, if it happens to stop in the marked bad spot, it will not restart.   I have actually let the motor stop at another area (where it would restart on it's own.)  and I have manually moved the turned the shaft around to the bad spot.  The motor would not start.  SOOOO!  I am fairly sure that YES the motor is bad.  I have tried to get help from Dave at wyh@goldenmotor.com.  He asked me to give him data from the motor like the voltage on hall effect wires at each step of the 24 steps.  The temperature of the motor, etc.  I sent him all this data and have never heard back from him.  I have re-emailed him and Kasen a number of times and cannot get any response.  Kasen@goldenmotor.com is who I originally purchased the motor and controller from.  When I try to contact goldenmotors, they tell me the Kasen is the one to contact.  He won't reply to emails.  I don't remember how long the warranty was good on this motor, but maybe getting close.
Please tell me what to do to get this problem solved.  I hope YOU reply.
Thanks
John

[Bikemad]

Hi John,

You have not been having a lot of luck recently by the sound of things, but at least I'm replying!

Is it the HPM 5000B or 3000B motor that you are using?

And is it just one spot out of the 24 rotor positions that it won't start in? (I.e. a single 15 degree section out of the whole 360 degrees.)

If it was a faulty Hall Sensor, phase wire or controller, I would expect there to be at least 4 or 8 positions out of 24  (every 90 or 45 degrees) where the motor wouldn't start.

I'm wondering whether a magnet may have come unstuck with the excessive heat if the temperature of the motor has been allowed to reach 150 degrees.
I don't know if there is enough room inside the motor to allow one of the magnets to be flung clear of the rotor if it came detached, but if this were possible I could see how you might have a single large segment (possibly as large as 90~105 degrees) were the motor might not start because of the missing magnet.

Is there an unusual rubbing noise coming from the motor when you turn it manually?

From the pictures I have seen of the HPM5000B motor it appears to have eight magnets and 24 coils:



And the magnet's polarity runs from side to side through the thickness of the magnet like this:



I am not sure what the exact cause of your problem is, but I will try and get a message to GM and hopefully someone will contact you.

Alan
 
P.S. If you have a copy of the data you sent to David perhaps you would be kind enough to forward it to my email address (unless you want to post it on the forum) as I would be interested in seeing it.

 

[Electronic nut]

Alan, Thank you very much for taking the time to help me.  I'll try to paste the results of test on the three hall effect leads.

   Y      G     B
1   0   1   1   
2   1   1   1   
3   1   1   0   
4   1   0   0   
5   0   0   0   
6   0   0   1   
7   0   1   1   
8   1   1   1   
9   1   1   0   
10   1   0   0   
11   0   0   0   
12   0   0   1   
13   0   1   1   
14   1   1   1   
15   1   1   0   
16   1   0   0   
17   0   0   0   
18   0   0   1   
19   0   1   1   
20   1   1   1   
21   1   1   0   
22   1   0   0   
23   0   0   0   
24   0   0   1   

This test shows the one thing that I have found to be present at the bad spot.  I'll try to explain:  If you will look at the Yellow lead.  It is on by itself in step 4, 10, 16, and 22.     
The Blue lead is on by itself in step 6, 12, 18, and 24.
Now look at the GREEN lead.  It is never on by itself.  I didn't make a mistake on testing leads because I have done it over and over again.
Here is the second thing I have found out:   When the motor stops in the bad spot, the green hall effect lead is the only one that is on. 
The third thing I have found is that when I made the tests, the hall effect leads were either at 5.0 Volts for on or around 0 for off. 
When the motor stops in bad spot, the green lead only has approx. 3 volts with the yellow and blue at 0 volts.
When the motor is in bad spot and green in on, I can turn the shaft one step and the Blue lead and green lead will both be on. ( I think I have to turn it in the oppsite direction about 3 pulses to get the yellow and green to be on.  I'm really not sure on that.)  I am sure that one pulse in one direction does turn on the Blue.
I have have the motor connected to a temp sensor to monitor temp.  The motor runs air conditioner about 15 minutes every 1.5 hours.  (our house has 7.5" insulated  walls and 1.5ft of insulation in roof.  The temp of the motor has never been over 135 degrees F. 
I sure hope you can help me get this thing to be dependable.  I bought  a little Fiat car with a bad engine and would love to purchase one of these water cooled motors for it.  First things first.  I have to get this one working or replaced
Oh yeah,  It is the HPM 5000B motor.
I just looked over your questions.  Yes it is only one spot not 4 or 8.
I turns smooth with just the magnets pulling.  Also I have turned through 360 and there is an even pulse at all 24 positions.
No rubbing noise.
Again, Thank you Alan
John Wirths

[Electronic nut]

After sleeping on this problem until 4 A.M., I believe You would need at least one more piece of data.  I believe that the Yellow is what is missing at the bad spot.  And we need to know just what exact position number the bad spot is.  So, I will rig up a yellow, green, and blue LED to the three hall effect leads and make a video while turning shaft.  I must have missed this when making the matrix  OR there is an intermittent opening of the yellow wire.  Anyway, thanks for putting up with all this reading and not enough data.  I will post the video asap.  (I think, by talking this through, I may be onto the real problem.
John

[Bikemad]

Hi John and thanks for posting the test results

It appears to have a regular recurring sequence but the sequence seems wrong to me.
For each position in the sequence I would expect either one or two of the three phases to be energised as shown here:



If your results are correct, your motor would have eight dead spots out of twenty four (assuming my interpretation of your results is also correct):
Pos  Y  G  B
 1   0  1  1   OK
 2   1  1  1   Dead Spot (all three ends of the circuit are Battery + so no current can flow)
 3   1  1  0   OK
 4   1  0  0   OK
 5   0  0  0   Dead Spot (all three ends of the circuit are Battery - so no current can flow)
 6   0  0  1   OK
 7   0  1  1   OK
 8   1  1  1   Dead Spot (all three ends of the circuit are Battery + so no current can flow)
 9   1  1  0   OK
10   1  0  0   OK
11   0  0  0   Dead Spot (all three ends of the circuit are Battery - so no current can flow)
12   0  0  1   OK
13   0  1  1   OK
14   1  1  1   Dead Spot (all three ends of the circuit are Battery + so no current can flow)
15   1  1  0   OK
16   1  0  0   OK
17   0  0  0   Dead Spot (all three ends of the circuit are Battery - so no current can flow) 
18   0  0  1   OK
19   0  1  1   OK
20   1  1  1   Dead Spot (all three ends of the circuit are Battery + so no current can flow)
21   1  1  0   OK
22   1  0  0   OK
23   0  0  0   Dead Spot (all three ends of the circuit are Battery - so no current can flow)
24   0  0  1   OK

Something just doesn't seem right here, but I haven't figured out what it could be.

It will be interesting to see your video of the flashing LEDs.

Alan