Author Topic: Controller blown during regen braking - should I use regen any more?  (Read 12951 times)

Offline Lu.Sochr

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Hello to all,

Today I did ride for first time this year and I decided to activate regen braking on my standard magic controller on Pro Kit 901 with delta x wye switch mode. After I start regen braking in delta mode I released brake switch, but regen did continue and regen seems to be blown. I measured all phases in controller between each other with multimeter and there was no resistance, so I assume all phases are shorted together. Motor seems to be OK, because it is working normally with my other controller.

So my question is, did it cause the delta mode? Or is normally regen mode hard to the controller and should I avoid it?

Thanks very much for your advices

Lu.Sochr
Mongoose Salvo Sport 2012 with 901 Pro Kit and 36V15Ah LiFePo4

Offline Bikemad

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Re: Controller blown during regen braking - should I use regen any more?
« Reply #1 on: March 03, 2013, 12:03:25 PM »

Hi Lubos,

It's difficult to say for sure whether the regen is responsible for the failure, but many of the dead controllers do seem to have failed just after braking at speed.

I'm currently running a Smart Pie and an MPII (both with the GM internal controllers and regen set at 100%) and have had no problems whatsoever with either controller.
However, I did manage to kill two controllers on my MKI Pie by modifying the shunts and running two controllers wired in parallel, but not with regen. ::)

If you're lucky, it might be possible to repair the dead controller by replacing the failed MOSFETs, assuming the rest of the controller is undamaged. ;)

Alan
 

Offline Lu.Sochr

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Re: Controller blown during regen braking - should I use regen any more?
« Reply #2 on: March 03, 2013, 12:51:17 PM »
Hi Alan,

thanks very much for your feedback. I am worried that fault was caused by using regen together with delta x wye mode, is that possible? However I will rather turn off regen, because it simply does not worth the risk.

I also think that I could replace those dead mosfets, but as I noticed controller has some kind of triangular screw head and I did'nt manage to unscrewe this thing and It is not easy to buy those bits, because they are very rear as I understand.
Mongoose Salvo Sport 2012 with 901 Pro Kit and 36V15Ah LiFePo4

Offline OzGeeksGarage

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Re: Controller blown during regen braking - should I use regen any more?
« Reply #3 on: March 03, 2013, 01:56:50 PM »
Hmm interesting, I just started using Regen braking and ended up setting mine to 100%, it appears to go higher, but I didn't think I should push my luck, now wondering whether it's safer to crank it back to 80% for a while till things are sorted & run in more.
Please excuse my crappy typing, I'm partially blind

Offline Bikemad

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Re: Controller blown during regen braking - should I use regen any more?
« Reply #4 on: March 03, 2013, 10:47:22 PM »
I noticed controller has some kind of triangular screw head and I didn't manage to unscrew this thing and it is not easy to buy those bits, because they are very rare as I understand.

If it's the recessed triangle type, I have removed similar screws in the past by wedging a suitable width flat bladed screwdriver along one side of the triangle like this:



If it's very tight, and you are able to do a bit of precision DIY, cut the tip off an old screwdriver and carefully file/grind the end to the required triangular shape and size like the correct tool:





Was the regen more effective with the windings switched to Delta or Wye configuration?

Alan
 

Offline OzGeeksGarage

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Re: Controller blown during regen braking - should I use regen any more?
« Reply #5 on: March 04, 2013, 04:14:47 AM »
Probably a simpler way to make a triangle key is to get the right size allen key and grind / file 3 sides flat.
Please excuse my crappy typing, I'm partially blind

Offline Lu.Sochr

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Re: Controller blown during regen braking - should I use regen any more?
« Reply #6 on: March 04, 2013, 08:22:32 AM »
Thanks very much for your ideas how to unscrewe this controller, I will try to fabricate my own triangular screwdriver:-)

Quote
Was the regen more effective with the windings switched to Delta or Wye configuration?

I didn't notice any difference in braking effect in delta or wye, I rode without cycle analyst, so I can not tell difference between those two modes in order to regen amps, but feeling of braking effect was more or less the same.

But now I realize, that I was switching from delta to wye during regen braking (accident) and because I am using 3x SPDT relay for switching, so perhaps that was the cause of failure. Relays perhaps didn't switch in exact same time and shorted phases together. In ES forum was several times mentioned that if you switching with this kind of relays you need to have zero throttle (logically regen as well) in that moment so that current is not flowing through those relays. Could that blew mosfets out?

Thanks again for your considerations,

Lubos
Mongoose Salvo Sport 2012 with 901 Pro Kit and 36V15Ah LiFePo4

Offline Andrew

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Re: Controller blown during regen braking - should I use regen any more?
« Reply #7 on: March 10, 2013, 09:01:43 PM »
I bought the correct triangle shaped screwdriver off ebay. They are also used on some kind of robot toy which iti was advertised under.  I think it was a Chinese seller.  I will have a look for you.

Offline Andrew

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Offline Lu.Sochr

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Re: Controller blown during regen braking - should I use regen any more?
« Reply #9 on: March 11, 2013, 06:46:33 AM »
Thanks very much Andrew!

I shall buy it, because I have a feeling that this is not last time I need to open controller:-)
Mongoose Salvo Sport 2012 with 901 Pro Kit and 36V15Ah LiFePo4

Offline GM Canada

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Re: Controller blown during regen braking - should I use regen any more?
« Reply #10 on: March 18, 2013, 12:09:30 AM »
Thanks for the link Andrew, I just bought one myself :)

Gary

Offline OzGeeksGarage

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Re: Controller blown during regen braking - should I use regen any more?
« Reply #11 on: March 18, 2013, 11:29:53 AM »
Thanks very much for your ideas how to unscrewe this controller, I will try to fabricate my own triangular screwdriver:-)

Quote
Was the regen more effective with the windings switched to Delta or Wye configuration?

I didn't notice any difference in braking effect in delta or wye, I rode without cycle analyst, so I can not tell difference between those two modes in order to regen amps, but feeling of braking effect was more or less the same.

But now I realize, that I was switching from delta to wye during regen braking (accident) and because I am using 3x SPDT relay for switching, so perhaps that was the cause of failure. Relays perhaps didn't switch in exact same time and shorted phases together. In ES forum was several times mentioned that if you switching with this kind of relays you need to have zero throttle (logically regen as well) in that moment so that current is not flowing through those relays. Could that blew mosfets out?

Thanks again for your considerations,

Lubos

It just occured to me the other day that besides relays shorting when swapping from Y(Star) to Delta, there is also the another possibility, being an industrial electrician, I had to go to a job to replace a blown up 415v 15kw Star/Delta starter on a sawdust extraction fan (the motor was around 800mm by 400 diameter), it was only a week old, I replaced it with an identical unit and noticed the supply fuses to it were way overrated for the starter, so put the correct size fuses in hooked up my ammeter and gave it a go with an extended Star time.

The fan started and ran fine for the 3 seconds before Star, then died completely on Delta with my clamp ammeter going off the scale, had a look and fuses were blown, one of the guys came up and said he just got sawdust blown all over his bench so I must have had it in reverse. Now I suspected what was wrong, having done a lot of Star/Delta stuff over the years, I always thought this was possible and had been careful to avoid doing it, but had never seen it done before.

The Electrician who replaced the old Star Delta with the unit that blew up was a younger less experienced guy, what was happening was it was starting in Star reverse and about a second later just as it got to full speed it was thrown into Delta forward direction, so he just put bigger fuses in, it got away with one start each morning for 5 days. It's lucky it hadn't thrown the fan blades off or sheared the main shaft.

Maybe there's the possibility you could be doing the same with this motor on regenerative braking. It also stands to reason that the one with half the amps of current is also probably doubling the output voltage.

The timers for Start/Delta motor starters all have a 1/4 second delay between the 2 steps, and normally the contactors are interlocked through auxillary contacts so the second contactor can only power up and close when the first one has actually opened.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2013, 08:03:06 AM by OzGeeksGarage »
Please excuse my crappy typing, I'm partially blind

Offline Morgen 3Eman

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Re: Controller blown during regen braking - should I use regen any more?
« Reply #12 on: March 18, 2013, 04:37:51 PM »
That is a nice bit of troubleshooting. 

TTFN,
Dennis

Offline Lu.Sochr

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Re: Controller blown during regen braking - should I use regen any more?
« Reply #13 on: March 20, 2013, 04:00:27 PM »
Quote
Maybe there's the possibility you could be doing the same with this motor on regenerative braking. It also stands to reason that the one with half the amps of current is also probably doubling the output voltage.

That is interesting thinking, but I believe It is not what happened, because in bench test star/delta switching worked normally (both in right direction of rotation). I was testing it on the road as well but I had regen braking turned off, because I did not want to another controller blown:-)

I think that I need to ensure that switching never occurs when throttle or regen braking is active, so I decided to rewire brake signal cables to the horn button (because I am not using horn) and I will have dedicated regen button and never use it in delta mode. I like this idea because other advantage is that if I ride very fast I do not want to use regen because it would pass too much current into my battery pack and I am worried about it's lifespan, so I will be using regen only in low speed and have mechanical brakes independent on regen.
Mongoose Salvo Sport 2012 with 901 Pro Kit and 36V15Ah LiFePo4

Offline Morgen 3Eman

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Re: Controller blown during regen braking - should I use regen any more?
« Reply #14 on: March 20, 2013, 05:49:16 PM »
One thing to remember is that when switching delta-wye configurations while a PM  motor is turning is that the instantaneous voltage generated by the open windings will be (theoretically) infinite, as the inductance tries to keep the current flowing.

TTFN,
Dennis