Author Topic: Can Two controllers be used to power a single motor?  (Read 35097 times)

Offline Bikemad

  • Global Moderator
  • Professor
  • PhD. Magic
  • ******
  • Posts: 5,553
Can Two controllers be used to power a single motor?
« on: March 31, 2011, 02:14:01 PM »

Has anyone tried, or does anyone know if it's possible to connect two controllers in parallel to power a single motor?

I've been thinking how to reliably increase the power output from my internal controller in order to get some decent current out of it. (More than the 20Amps maximum that I currently have)
I'm convinced it should be possible to simply put another identical controller inside the hub and just connect all the wiring in parallel with the existing controller, so if anyone in the UK has a spare internal controller from a Pie, I might be interested!

I'd even considered putting another six (or 12) FETs on a separate heatsink plate, linking the power and the three phase wires directly, but with each of the gate pins being connected to the gate pins on the existing FETs. I think a shunt would still be needed on the ground connection to prevent too much current from going through the new FETs.
But I think a second controller would be the easiest option.

I'd appreciate some opinions on this if possible.
 
Alan
 

Offline DirtyGinge

  • Confirmed
  • PhD. Magic
  • ******
  • Posts: 614
  • Im just trying to find my niche.3 e-bikes is fine
Re: Can Two controllers be used to power a single motor?
« Reply #1 on: March 31, 2011, 02:49:17 PM »
Hi buddy

Whereabouts in the uk are you buddy :)

Not sure about the double controllers, I think synchonisation might be an issue on them as whether the halls feeding to 2 lines would lead to issues...wouldnt need much de-sync the phases ??

Needs an educated answer from someone more educated me thinks..got a spare internal from the wheel I just converted to infineon......

Infineon lyen edition 12 Fet
Goldenmotor Magic pie rear ....2000 Watt peak
oh yea.....Im too fat :)...but cute, oh yea, im cute

Offline Bikemad

  • Global Moderator
  • Professor
  • PhD. Magic
  • ******
  • Posts: 5,553
Re: Can Two controllers be used to power a single motor?
« Reply #2 on: April 01, 2011, 12:22:44 AM »
Whereabouts in the uk are you buddy :)

...got a spare internal from the wheel I just converted to infineon......


Hi Ginge, I would have replied earlier, but unfortunately work has to come first.

Anyway, I'm located down in Sunny Devon, surrounded by far too many steep hills for my liking, hence the quest for more power!  ;)
I am hoping to raise my current 20 Amp max to nearer 50 Amps (if all goes according to plan), which should give me some decent hill climbing power.

Alternatively, If things don't go according to plan, I can see an external controller moving much higher up my wanted list, but I am hoping I can keep things hidden away, so that it still looks as standard as possible.

If your old internal controller is going to be surplus to requirements, send me a PM with your asking price and I'll see if it comes anywhere near my ever diminishing budget.

Does your Infineon controller have a more responsive throttle than the GM controller, or does it still have a similar delay when you open the throttle quickly?

Alan
 
« Last Edit: April 01, 2011, 12:31:01 AM by Bikemad »

Offline DirtyGinge

  • Confirmed
  • PhD. Magic
  • ******
  • Posts: 614
  • Im just trying to find my niche.3 e-bikes is fine
Re: Can Two controllers be used to power a single motor?
« Reply #3 on: April 01, 2011, 08:12:45 PM »
to be honest, the only time ive noticed any delay, is when the hall sensors failed and the controller was in sensorless mode.....then there was about 1 second delay....otherwise I never noticed

are you ok for citylink delivery ?, depot near etc.....or a different address for daytime delivery...
Infineon lyen edition 12 Fet
Goldenmotor Magic pie rear ....2000 Watt peak
oh yea.....Im too fat :)...but cute, oh yea, im cute

Offline Bikemad

  • Global Moderator
  • Professor
  • PhD. Magic
  • ******
  • Posts: 5,553
Re: Can Two controllers be used to power a single motor?
« Reply #4 on: April 02, 2011, 12:11:00 AM »
are you ok for citylink delivery ?, depot near etc.....or a different address for daytime delivery...

Ginge, whatever and whenever it's most convenient for you, there's absolutely no panic at this end. I'm in most days during the week as I work a late shift, and if I'm not in, my wife probably will be.

My dual controller theory is going to be put to the test! ;D

Thanks again Ginge,

Alan

P.S. Do you remember what the last programmed settings were on this controller?
 

Offline DirtyGinge

  • Confirmed
  • PhD. Magic
  • ******
  • Posts: 614
  • Im just trying to find my niche.3 e-bikes is fine
Re: Can Two controllers be used to power a single motor?
« Reply #5 on: April 02, 2011, 03:28:17 PM »
hi mate

ill try get it to you early this week

48V low PAS, I think 70% regen....

I take it you want mounting plate as well....

regards
Infineon lyen edition 12 Fet
Goldenmotor Magic pie rear ....2000 Watt peak
oh yea.....Im too fat :)...but cute, oh yea, im cute

Offline Bikemad

  • Global Moderator
  • Professor
  • PhD. Magic
  • ******
  • Posts: 5,553
Re: Can Two controllers be used to power a single motor?
« Reply #6 on: April 02, 2011, 03:44:53 PM »
I take it you want mounting plate as well....

Yes please Ginge, as it would save me making another heatsink plate for it.

Alan
 

Offline Bikemad

  • Global Moderator
  • Professor
  • PhD. Magic
  • ******
  • Posts: 5,553
Re: Can Two controllers be used to power a single motor?
« Reply #7 on: April 13, 2011, 12:23:12 AM »
Did you try 2 controllers?Did it work?

I'm hoping it will fit without too much hassle, but it looks like it may have to wait until after Easter.

Once Easter has been and gone I will hopefully be able to find out whether or not it works, unfortunately it will be a bit more involved on my pie because I have a home-made spoke flange ring fitted over the cover on the speed controller side, which prevents the cover from being easily removed:





I will post the results of my proposed dual controller modification as soon as it's done, assuming I will be able to successfully fit it into the hub. I have attached a picture to show very roughly how it will hopefully be fitted and wired.

Alan
 
« Last Edit: April 13, 2011, 01:11:51 AM by Bikemad »

Offline Bikemad

  • Global Moderator
  • Professor
  • PhD. Magic
  • ******
  • Posts: 5,553
Re: Can Two controllers be used to power a single motor?
« Reply #8 on: May 01, 2011, 10:34:58 PM »
It's finally time for an update.

I have been very busy today performing some major surgery on my stator in order to get the second controller to fit nicely.

Here's the stator before modification:



And this is where the second controller needs to go:



But these reinforcement ribs are in the way and need to be removed first:



There's no turning back now!




And here is the final result after a lot of grinding (consuming 5 mini discs and a set of brushes in my drill):



Fixing holes drilled and heatsink pop-riveted in place:



Heat sink compound applied and second controller fitted:



And here's a view from the other side:



It's looking very good so far, with just the wiring to be completed when I can find some more spare time, and then I should find out whether it works as hoped (double the power)  ;D, or simply blows both controllers (zero power) :'(

I should hopefully know one way or the other within the next few days!



Alan
 
« Last Edit: June 30, 2017, 10:45:47 PM by Bikemad »

Offline DirtyGinge

  • Confirmed
  • PhD. Magic
  • ******
  • Posts: 614
  • Im just trying to find my niche.3 e-bikes is fine
Re: Can Two controllers be used to power a single motor?
« Reply #9 on: May 01, 2011, 10:41:27 PM »
Fingers crossed :D.

Don't forget to duplicate your ebrake, in case you're in cruise etc

regards
« Last Edit: May 01, 2011, 11:01:33 PM by spellchecker »
Infineon lyen edition 12 Fet
Goldenmotor Magic pie rear ....2000 Watt peak
oh yea.....Im too fat :)...but cute, oh yea, im cute

Offline GM Canada

  • Super Gary
  • Confirmed
  • PhD. Magic
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,544
Re: Can Two controllers be used to power a single motor?
« Reply #10 on: May 01, 2011, 11:03:45 PM »
Nice Stuff Alan! Very brave of you!!

Gary

Offline _GonZo_

  • Confirmed
  • Magic Undergrad
  • ***
  • Posts: 82
    • www.evovelo.com
Re: Can Two controllers be used to power a single motor?
« Reply #11 on: May 02, 2011, 12:32:12 AM »
Very interesting, let see if it goes.

Offline Bikemad

  • Global Moderator
  • Professor
  • PhD. Magic
  • ******
  • Posts: 5,553
Re: Dual Controller Test Results
« Reply #12 on: May 05, 2011, 01:49:45 PM »
Yesterday, I was finally able to complete the wiring, I'd like to say that the testing was a complete success and that it all went according to plan, but I can't, because it didn't. :(

Here are a couple of pictures of the completed wiring, which actually took much longer to do than I had expected:





I also added an additional loop of wire to each of the shunts to try and achieve nearer 25Amps max from each controller:



With the wiring completed, the wheel was quickly reassembled and refitted to the bike ready for testing. I eagerly connected the battery, producing a very loud crack accompanied by the anticipated bigger spark. But I had not expected this to be immediately followed by three beeps coming from the hub, indicating throttle failure. I quickly rechecked all external connections and even tried a spare throttle unit, but still three beeps. I then tried pressing the cruise button and the wheel instantly spun into life , which made me feel a bit more optimistic.
I carried out some simple checks with the voltmeter and discovered that I only had 0.5V instead of 5V coming from the throttle supply at the mini connector.

Unfortunately there was no way around it, the wheel had to come off again so I could access the internal wiring.
I removed the side cover and pulled the stator out for easier access and mounted it in the bench vice and reconnected the wires to the bike which was underneath it.

This time I heard just 2 beeps (hall sensor failure) so I grabbed the voltmeter again and started checking voltages again.  All three of the hall sensor outputs were reading around 4.6V, so I grabbed a magnet and tried moving it past each of the sensors, but the reading was still the same. I turned the magnet around and repeated the same process. This time, each of the sensor outputs went to 0V as the magnet came near to the respective sensor. So I deduced that the hall sensor failure warning had only occurred because the stator was not surrounded by the magnets.

Then I focused on finding the cause of the low throttle voltage, and a quick check with the meter showed 4.9V on the 5V throttle supply on both circuit boards. ??? So I rechecked the voltage at the external throttle connector, but for some strange reason this was also showing 4.9V. ::)

Unable to find anything wrong with the wiring inside the hub, I reassembled the wheel and decided I'd test it in the vice first. Connected the wires and no beeps whatsoever, so I anxiously tried twisting the throttle and the wheel started to run properly. ;D

I then refitted it to the bike again so I could take it for a quick spin, as I was taping the wires to the frame to keep them away from the tyre, I heard the dreaded three beeps again ??? but at least I now knew what was causing the fault - a poor connection in the main junction block on the Pie's harness! Not wanting to strip this apart, I moved the block slightly so it was pushing slightly onto the cable instead of pulling, which seemed to cure the problem.

The moment of truth had finally arrived and it was time to test out all my hard work. I took the bike for a quick spin around the back garden and it definitely seemed to pull me up the slope much easier than before. I checked my watt meter, and this confirmed my thoughts by showing the highest reading I've ever had of 1340Watts, but still not quite as much as I had hoped for.

I continued to test the motor and made it work as hard as I could in an effort to get a higher reading, but this did not happen. The motor did eventually get slightly warmer than it had before, but definitely not hot. After a few more tests, I noticed that the throttle would not work unless the bike was moving, and the noise from the motor had become slightly more harsh. I disconnected the battery and then reconnected it, only to hear two beeps (hall sensor failure) :( but as I was running out of time, I had to put the bike away and go to work.

Today, I decided to try the bike again so I could see what it was like from cold, but unfortunately I still received the two beeps. I pedalled the bike and twisted the throttle and received a slight nudge from the motor, followed by the dreaded sound of five beeps and a wheel which is now lumpy to turn, indicating the death of a controller, or more likely both of them knowing my luck!

I don't have the enthusiasm to start pulling it all apart again now, so the post mortem will have to be done at a later date.

But at least this experiment has provided an answer to my original question, "Can Two controllers be used to power a single motor?" , the answer is yes, but unfortunately I would not recommend it because it probably will not work for very long! ;)

I think an external controller conversion may well be happening if both controllers are found to be dead.

Alan
 


« Last Edit: June 30, 2017, 10:35:13 PM by Bikemad »

Offline gf3

  • Confirmed
  • Magic Undergrad
  • ***
  • Posts: 62
Re: Can Two controllers be used to power a single motor?
« Reply #13 on: May 05, 2011, 06:25:40 PM »
May be when you have finished that little job. You could take the wye apart so you get six ends and wire it as two motors with two controller look forward to hearing how it went tomorrow ;D ;D

Offline DirtyGinge

  • Confirmed
  • PhD. Magic
  • ******
  • Posts: 614
  • Im just trying to find my niche.3 e-bikes is fine
Re: Can Two controllers be used to power a single motor?
« Reply #14 on: May 05, 2011, 08:31:44 PM »
aw man....I had such hopes......that little board did miles  :(

listen, if you decide to go external, ive got aplphawire  ecowire ill send you some meters for nowt....as a gift after the controller ( all red coloured though, although I got round this with coloured cable ties)

i regularly pull well over 1700 watts of my infineon controller on one pie ( confirmed by very happy cheshire cat andrew and webby)

If you need any help ( not that I think you would) , gimme a shout ;)
Infineon lyen edition 12 Fet
Goldenmotor Magic pie rear ....2000 Watt peak
oh yea.....Im too fat :)...but cute, oh yea, im cute