Author Topic: Programming the Magic Pie 5 Vector for legal street use  (Read 6479 times)

Offline Wilson_wu

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Programming the Magic Pie 5 Vector for legal street use
« on: July 11, 2017, 01:43:47 AM »
I thought simply setting the programmer to 36V and plugging in a 36V battery in would be enough to keep the bike street legal.

I finally plugged in my Bluetooth and realized my bike was going nearly 40.8km/h. YIKES lol. Can anyone help me set the programmer so that I can make my bike street legal? I also noticed on the main page of the Bluetooth, it says 40.9 (V) when idle under Power. Shouldn't it be 36 (V)? I checked the App Log, it says Max Voltage - 41 / Min Voltage - 38.4.

I'm assuming changing the RPM to 257 should lower the speed to 32km/h...but what else do I need to change? I do not want my bike going over any of the street legal limits such as 500W, 32km/h, 36V etc...

EDIT: I changed the RPM with the USB cable to 257, lifted the wheel to test the bike and it still exceeds the RPM to almost 280 despite it saying the maximum is 257. What am I doing wrong?:(

Also, the "Throttle enable" and "Pedelec enable" options are nowhere to be found on my USB/computer connection, will that option pop up once I physically crimp the pedelec to the bike?
« Last Edit: July 11, 2017, 07:19:20 AM by Wilson_wu »

Offline Wilson_wu

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Re: Programming the Magic Pie 5 Vector for legal street use
« Reply #1 on: July 11, 2017, 02:18:18 AM »
What should I fill into the spots if I simply want a 32km/h max bike with a 36V battery? Please note it is a Magic Pie 5 Vector, which has the potential to be illegal on streets if programmed incorrectly so a little worried. lol :)

Regen braking enable:
Reverse enable:
Throttle enable:
PAS enable:
PAS Ratio (0.1 times):
Nominal battery voltage (V):
Overvoltage protection value (V):
Undervoltage protection value (V):
Battery drawn current (A):
Rated phase current (A):
Maximum forward speed (RPM):
Maximum reverse speed (RPM):
Max EBS phase current (A):
Acceleration (%):
Throttle valid speed (RPM):
« Last Edit: July 11, 2017, 02:20:38 AM by Wilson_wu »

Offline Bikemad

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Re: Programming the Magic Pie 5 Vector for legal street use
« Reply #2 on: July 11, 2017, 10:29:44 AM »
I thought simply setting the programmer to 36V and plugging in a 36V battery in would be enough to keep the bike street legal.

The legal requirements are not the same in all countries/states, so you have to adjust the speed settings etc. to suit your local legislations.

I finally plugged in my Bluetooth and realized my bike was going nearly 40.8km/h. YIKES lol. Can anyone help me set the programmer so that I can make my bike street legal? I also noticed on the main page of the Bluetooth, it says 40.9 (V) when idle under Power. Shouldn't it be 36 (V)? I checked the App Log, it says Max Voltage - 41 / Min Voltage - 38.4.

The 36V refers to the nominal battery voltage, not its maximum voltage.
The nominal voltage of a battery's cell battery will vary according to the battery's chemistry:
NiCd & NiMH = 1.2V per cell
Lead Acid = 2V per cell
LiFePO4 = 3.3V per cell
LiPo & LiMn =3.7V per cell

A 36V LiMn pack typically uses 10 cells in series to provide a nominal voltage of 37V, but the fully charged voltage will be around 42V (4.2 volts per cell).

A 36V LiFePO4 pack using 12 cells in series will have a nominal voltage of 39.6V, but the fully charged voltage will be between 43.2V and 43.8V, which is determined by the safe maximum charging voltage(usually 3.60 or 3.65 volts per cell).


I'm assuming changing the RPM to 257 should lower the speed to 32km/h...but what else do I need to change? I do not want my bike going over any of the street legal limits such as 500W, 32km/h, 36V etc...

Most legal power limits refer to the motor's maximum rated continuous power output rather than the maximum available power. Check your legislation to find out exactly what it refers to.
If your legislation states an actual maximum power output (not the maximum continuous rating) of the motor, you can set your "Battery drawn current (A)" setting to 18 Amps, which should limit the actual power output to approximately 500 watts @ 72% efficiency.
This means that under full load, the actual power being drawn from the battery will probably be nearer to 700 watts, but 28% of the power being consumed is basically generating unwanted heat within the motor and controller.


EDIT: I changed the RPM with the USB cable to 257, lifted the wheel to test the bike and it still exceeds the RPM to almost 280 despite it saying the maximum is 257. What am I doing wrong?:(

You have not done anything wrong, I think is it simply a discrepancy in the controllers firmware.
I encountered the same problem and had to adjust mine on a trial and error basis until I found the best rpm to achieve the required maximum speed.
I used a gps speed measurement App on my smartphone to accurately adjust my maximum assisted speed on the level, but doing it this way means that it might accidentally go slightly faster under power alone on a slight downhill gradient or with a tailwind.  ;)


Also, the "Throttle enable" and "Pedelec enable" options are nowhere to be found on my USB/computer connection, will that option pop up once I physically crimp the pedelec to the bike?

The "Throttle valid speed (RPM)", "Throttle enable" and "Pedelec enable" options shown on the Bluetooth interface don't appear to do anything on my MP5 or MP Edge, so I presume the same Bluetooth App might also be used on other controllers that do (or may in the future) support this function.

Alan




Offline StadsImker

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Re: Programming the Magic Pie 5 Vector for legal street use
« Reply #3 on: July 14, 2017, 09:43:07 AM »
The only way to get max. 500 watt is to use max. 24 volts. That limmits your wattage to legal values.

Changing max RPM is only a trick to get lower speeds, but you will still have an to powerfull ebike.

Magic Pie will technically never be a street legal Ebike motor. You need one of it's smaller versions. In the Netherlands Legal is only an ebike motor of 250 watt with PAS. And I think most EU countries have a limit like this. But nowadays many of our dutch produced ebike drive 350 watt motors... And are sold as "Street legal" but officially they are not legal. Illegal is un-officially more than 350 watt. You can have speedpedelics, but you need helmet and insurrance and car of motor or mopet driving-license and you need to be older that 15.
Love to ride my 60 year old Dutch Transport Bike, with MP5 and 24 volt 30 A LiFePO4 Headway battery-pack. Dec 2016 upgraded with two solar panels mono of 190 WP each and an extra 24V-30A (40152 8S2P) to get 48volts for the Magic Pie 5.

Offline Bikemad

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Re: Programming the Magic Pie 5 Vector for legal street use
« Reply #4 on: July 14, 2017, 11:38:15 AM »
The only way to get max. 500 watt is to use max. 24 volts. That limmits your wattage to legal values.

Changing max RPM is only a trick to get lower speeds, but you will still have an to powerfull ebike.

But using max. 24V would not produce just under 500 watts of power at 32km/h which wilson should be able to legally use.

According to the performance data sheet, a Magic Pie on 24V only produces 308.88 watts of power @ 130rpm (around 10mph or 16km/h with a 26" wheel). The maximum speed with a 26" wheel would be around 15mph (~25km/h) which is 7km below the 32km/h legal limit that Wilson has to comply with.

Most legal power limits refer to the motor's maximum rated continuous power output rather than the maximum available power. Check your legislation to find out exactly what it refers to.
If your legislation states an actual maximum power output (not the maximum continuous rating) of the motor, you can set your "Battery drawn current (A)" setting to 18 Amps, which should limit the actual power output to approximately 500 watts @ 72% efficiency.
This means that under full load, the actual power being drawn from the battery will probably be nearer to 700 watts, but 28% of the power being consumed is basically generating unwanted heat within the motor and controller.

If you limit the motor's current to ensure the output does not exceed 500 watts and also limit the maximum speed so that the motor can only provide assistance below the maximum legal limit, then why should the battery voltage matter?

If a Cycle Analyst is used on a 100V 10kW motor to prevent the power and speed from exceeding the legal limits, should this be considered illegal?

It shouldn't matter how the power and speed are permanently governed, so long as the bike cannot exceed the stated legal limits it should be perfectly legal to use.

Motorcycle manufacturers are allowed to simply restrict the power output of some motors so they can be used by learner riders, so if restricting the power to place the vehicle into a lower power classification is acceptable (and legal) for motorbikes, it should be just as acceptable (and legal) to do the same thing with eBikes.

Alan
 
P.S. The 250W EU legal limit may be acceptable on flat roads, but it is not sufficient for steep hills as it forces the rider to slow down considerably. Most riders tend to become very unstable at slower speeds and will often wobble considerably from side to side, and this makes them far more likely to struck from behind by other road users, or cause a major collision if the vehicle has to swerve into oncoming traffic in an attempt to avoid them.

One of the things that motorists hate most is being stuck behind a very slow (and often wobbly) cyclist struggling up a steep hill.
If they were going faster and keeping in a nice straight line, it would be much easier to overtake them safely. ;)

I have never been able to understand why it is perfectly acceptable for a pushbike to speed down steep hills at speeds in excess of 40-50mph without a motor, yet they have to be limited to such ridiculously slow speeds when going up the same steep hills with a motor.
It is much easier (and safer) to stop quickly while going up a steep hill than it is going down it.  ::)
« Last Edit: July 14, 2017, 11:40:21 AM by Bikemad »

Offline Hastings

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Re: Programming the Magic Pie 5 Vector for legal street use
« Reply #5 on: July 15, 2017, 12:21:24 PM »
For Europe the new rules on  E-bikes are explained here : http://www.raivereniging.nl/ecm/?id=workspace://SpacesStore/4ee4a9c0-3b5a-48f7-9346-ce670f4a0e43   
The Documnt is too large to attach

It I think it is very unclear for more powerful bikes with obtainable speed between 25-45 km/h


Offline Wilson_wu

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Re: Programming the Magic Pie 5 Vector for legal street use
« Reply #6 on: July 22, 2017, 07:52:08 PM »
I thought simply setting the programmer to 36V and plugging in a 36V battery in would be enough to keep the bike street legal.

The legal requirements are not the same in all countries/states, so you have to adjust the speed settings etc. to suit your local legislations.

I finally plugged in my Bluetooth and realized my bike was going nearly 40.8km/h. YIKES lol. Can anyone help me set the programmer so that I can make my bike street legal? I also noticed on the main page of the Bluetooth, it says 40.9 (V) when idle under Power. Shouldn't it be 36 (V)? I checked the App Log, it says Max Voltage - 41 / Min Voltage - 38.4.

The 36V refers to the nominal battery voltage, not its maximum voltage.
The nominal voltage of a battery's cell battery will vary according to the battery's chemistry:
NiCd & NiMH = 1.2V per cell
Lead Acid = 2V per cell
LiFePO4 = 3.3V per cell
LiPo & LiMn =3.7V per cell

A 36V LiMn pack typically uses 10 cells in series to provide a nominal voltage of 37V, but the fully charged voltage will be around 42V (4.2 volts per cell).

A 36V LiFePO4 pack using 12 cells in series will have a nominal voltage of 39.6V, but the fully charged voltage will be between 43.2V and 43.8V, which is determined by the safe maximum charging voltage(usually 3.60 or 3.65 volts per cell).


I'm assuming changing the RPM to 257 should lower the speed to 32km/h...but what else do I need to change? I do not want my bike going over any of the street legal limits such as 500W, 32km/h, 36V etc...

Most legal power limits refer to the motor's maximum rated continuous power output rather than the maximum available power. Check your legislation to find out exactly what it refers to.
If your legislation states an actual maximum power output (not the maximum continuous rating) of the motor, you can set your "Battery drawn current (A)" setting to 18 Amps, which should limit the actual power output to approximately 500 watts @ 72% efficiency.
This means that under full load, the actual power being drawn from the battery will probably be nearer to 700 watts, but 28% of the power being consumed is basically generating unwanted heat within the motor and controller.


EDIT: I changed the RPM with the USB cable to 257, lifted the wheel to test the bike and it still exceeds the RPM to almost 280 despite it saying the maximum is 257. What am I doing wrong?:(

You have not done anything wrong, I think is it simply a discrepancy in the controllers firmware.
I encountered the same problem and had to adjust mine on a trial and error basis until I found the best rpm to achieve the required maximum speed.
I used a gps speed measurement App on my smartphone to accurately adjust my maximum assisted speed on the level, but doing it this way means that it might accidentally go slightly faster under power alone on a slight downhill gradient or with a tailwind.  ;)


Also, the "Throttle enable" and "Pedelec enable" options are nowhere to be found on my USB/computer connection, will that option pop up once I physically crimp the pedelec to the bike?

The "Throttle valid speed (RPM)", "Throttle enable" and "Pedelec enable" options shown on the Bluetooth interface don't appear to do anything on my MP5 or MP Edge, so I presume the same Bluetooth App might also be used on other controllers that do (or may in the future) support this function.

Alan



Bikemad, this is the legislation for the Province of Ontario in Canada:
"it has a total continuous power output rating, measured at the shaft of each motor, of 500 W or less"

I bought a Smart Display that shows the wattage right on the front of the display. Is there anyway to disable this? :( Also, when I press full throttle, the SD jumps right up to upwards of 800+ Watts on it immediately

Taking into account my local legislation, what exactly should I do?
« Last Edit: July 23, 2017, 10:34:00 AM by Wilson_wu »

Offline Bikemad

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Re: Programming the Magic Pie 5 Vector for legal street use
« Reply #7 on: July 24, 2017, 12:14:53 AM »
Hi Wilson,

As long as the continuous power being drawn from the battery does not exceed 700 Watts, and the speed does not exceed 32km/h, your bike should comply with the rules.

The Smart Display shows the power being drawn from the battery by the motor, not the power that the motor is producing.

Most legal power limits refer to the motor's maximum rated continuous power output rather than the maximum available power. Check your legislation to find out exactly what it refers to.
If your legislation states an actual maximum power output (not the maximum continuous rating) of the motor, you can set your "Battery drawn current (A)" setting to 18 Amps, which should limit the actual power output to approximately 500 watts @ 72% efficiency.
This means that under full load, the actual power being drawn from the battery will probably be nearer to 700 watts, but 28% of the power being consumed is basically generating unwanted heat within the motor and controller.

The burst power is likely to be a lot higher than the continuous power, but the power restrictions stipulated in the legislation usually apply to the "continuous power output" not the maximum peak power output.

To prevent the power from being shown on the Smart Display, you would either need to apply a sticker (or a piece of black tape etc.) over the screen to hide the power reading, or disconnect the smart display completely. ;)

Alan
 

Offline Thuktun

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Re: Programming the Magic Pie 5 Vector for legal street use
« Reply #8 on: July 25, 2017, 06:25:57 PM »
Am I the only one who thinks this is all an unnecessary pain in the butt? I can buy a car that's capable of going 0-60 in 4.5 seconds with a top speed of 250km/hr even though I can't legally use it anywhere near it's full potential on a public road but my bicycle has all these rules.

Luckily around here no one seems to care. There are dozens of gas powered bikes riding around town and no one says anything to them. I haven't bothered to reprogram my ebike to be within the law but 95% of the time I don't go over 30km/hr anyway. Why? Brakes. If something gets in your way at 45km/hr you better have lots of room. The only time I go faster is I'll give a little boost approaching a steep hill and there's a bike trail I take to work every morning that's raised off the road, paved smooth, 15 feet wide and mostly straight. Nothing is going to suddenly pull out in front of me and there are no other cyclists at 5 am.

If drivers can be trusted to stay within the safe limits set out by law in spite of having a vehicle that's capable of so much more why can't we? Lol, I say that right after giving an example of me not following the law but you get my point.

Offline Standartuser

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Re: Programming the Magic Pie 5 Vector for legal street use
« Reply #9 on: July 25, 2017, 09:14:16 PM »
Here in Germany the law is also very hard for Ebikes...my solution is in this Thread!


https://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?topic=6257.0